Was he throwing a tantrum or was this aggression?
 
 

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Was he throwing a tantrum or was this aggression?

This is a discussion on Was he throwing a tantrum or was this aggression? within the Horse Talk forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category
  • Horse buck and rear while leading
  • If a horse started to rear and buck whilst you were leading him, what would you do

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    01-28-2012, 01:59 PM
  #1
Weanling
Was he throwing a tantrum or was this aggression?

I have had my gelding for about 4 weeks now. He has had to be on rationed hay as he came down with laminitis quite badly so I have been hand walking him everyday rather than letting him free on grass. When I went to try this guy he kept snatching down for grass. This wasn't a problem as I have done work on this with other ponies so it didn't concern me. Today I put his halter on and started to walk him in hand and he asked for grass so I gave him a light feel to say no, he ignored me so I gave him a harder feel and he stopped. We were walking along and he stopped and didn't want to go forward so I used my rope to swing it at his hind end to ask him to go forward he bucked! So I swung it again this time he didn't buck and walked forward. Then after about ten minutes he attempted to put his head down for grass I asked lightly but he kept at it so I asked more strongly and he didn't like it he threw his head around and struck out with his front leg. I could see he was getting irritated about being stopped from eating but I wasn't stopping with this until I had got him waiting politely. I swung the rope at his shoulder as soon as he struck out and moved his shoulders right away from me. He did eventually stop asking but I don't want to battle with him constantly ever time I lead him out. I know this sounds like a disrespect issue and I agree but he has been fine and I believe that this is something he has always got away with previously and now he doesn't like being told he can't so is having a paddy. The buck didn't bother the striking out did! I have to deal with these issues before getting in the saddle with him. I'm thinking he may not be the chilled out guy I was lead to believe. I was told he needs a firm hand but that is fine and I have the ground skills to deal with that it's the striking that concerned me today. I would be grateful for any opinion. I haven't fully finished paying for this guy so sending him back could be an option. I haven't the time to battle with him everyday and I thought I was getting a chilled out boy who could be ridden 2-3 times a week and be fine. He no longer has laminitis but I have to be careful how much turnout he is getting i'm going to try free turnout tomorrow for an hour and see if that makes him any better it could just be that he has been in and only hand walked.
     
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    01-28-2012, 02:10 PM
  #2
Super Moderator
When you work with the horse on the ground , or in saddle, you will use only the amount of pressure necessary to get the job done, right? However, when the horse reacts to your pressure by pushing back, then you must meet his push and add more to it. When he bucks , you need to apply pressure that derails him from the frame of mind, so it would be more pressure than the normal amount of just asking him to move his hip over. And it would be more sharp, too.
Him reacting to you with striking at you with his front leg is FAR more serious than a buck. The buck might be just his expresesion of irritation, but the strike toward you has more intention in it to make YOU move. That is a lot of push back from a horse, and you do not meet it with the same kind of "please move your shoulder over". You meet that very high level of pushback with an even higher level of pushback , and pretty darn quick!

YOu would want to move him away from you so darn quickly and strongly that he completely lets go of any idea that he can push on you. So, you would have to over do it, even. Then test that he has let go of that idea by leading him on to see if he is being obedient.

What I dont' understand is why you are hand walking him? Are you saying you are hand grazing him? If so, why can you not put him out to graze on his own, but put a grazing muzzle on him. I really dislike hand grazing. It is very hard for the horse because it puts him in the place where he is very focussed on eating, but the handler expects him to act as if he not. It's a very gray area.
When I have the horse on the leadline, I disallow any grazing. The only time I have allowed grzing while on the lead, (if it was needed or unavoidable) I dropped the lead onto the ground . If I am holding the lead, horse keeps its' head up.
     
    01-28-2012, 02:24 PM
  #3
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
When you work with the horse on the ground , or in saddle, you will use only the amount of pressure necessary to get the job done, right? However, when the horse reacts to your pressure by pushing back, then you must meet his push and add more to it. When he bucks , you need to apply pressure that derails him from the frame of mind, so it would be more pressure than the normal amount of just asking him to move his hip over. And it would be more sharp, too.
Him reacting to you with striking at you with his front leg is FAR more serious than a buck. The buck might be just his expresesion of irritation, but the strike toward you has more intention in it to make YOU move. That is a lot of push back from a horse, and you do not meet it with the same kind of "please move your shoulder over". You meet that very high level of pushback with an even higher level of pushback , and pretty darn quick!

YOu would want to move him away from you so darn quickly and strongly that he completely lets go of any idea that he can push on you. So, you would have to over do it, even. Then test that he has let go of that idea by leading him on to see if he is being obedient.

What I dont' understand is why you are hand walking him? Are you saying you are hand grazing him? If so, why can you not put him out to graze on his own, but put a grazing muzzle on him. I really dislike hand grazing. It is very hard for the horse because it puts him in the place where he is very focussed on eating, but the handler expects him to act as if he not. It's a very gray area.
When I have the horse on the leadline, I disallow any grazing. The only time I have allowed grzing while on the lead, (if it was needed or unavoidable) I dropped the lead onto the ground . If I am holding the lead, horse keeps its' head up.
Thank you for replying so quickly Tiny, I do up the ante so to speak, when he bucked he got a swift second sting from the rope that was much harder than the first. Also when he struck out I didn't even start gentle he got a hard sting from the end of my rope and jumped back. He didn't rear while striking and I didn't get the impression he was trying to hurt me I got the impression he was pissed with me for not allowing him to eat. But having said that any striking is a no no! I agree I should have met the striking with a much firmer approach than I did and I was ready and waiting to meet him with a world of hell if he attempted it again. I have been leading him out for some exercise as he has been very lame and had laminitis and with it being frosty weather here at the moment I haven't been able to let him out to graze.
     
    01-28-2012, 03:00 PM
  #4
Started
In Parelli, we pick the grazing spot, so the grey area's eliminated. Horse says, "here!" & you say, "No, there!" Then horse sees that you'll let him eat, which takes away the anger, & you're still leader of the herd of two. Also, if you want to mosey along, but horse wants to stay at that spot to eat, don't get into a pulling match on the rope, flick him in hindquarters instead.

Btw, you've got a left-brain horse there: food-motivated, pushy.
     
    01-28-2012, 03:37 PM
  #5
Showing
Why would you buy a horse with laminitis?
     
    01-28-2012, 03:47 PM
  #6
Yearling
You will never find a horse that doesn't test you. Period.

Also, I don't care if he wasn't trying to hurt you. 99% of the time, a horse is not trying to hurt you, but to put it bluntly, he could kill you if he so chose. They kick at each other all the time, and they are friends in the pasture. What you have to make him realize is that when he kicks at you, you are going to KILL HIM!

Honestly there are a few behaviors I do NOT tolerate, 1 is kicking.I quite literally have kicked my horse in the flank because he threw his foot at me. He was shocked. And he immediately turned and looked at me like "WTF?!" He VERY quickly understood, you kick=I retaliate and scare the crap out of you.

Now keep this in mind: I did not hurt my horse, but I made him THINK I was going to hurt him. I look at it like this: He started it, I finished it.

The eating thing while leading is also a disrespect issue. In most cases (unless it is a dangerous behavior) you correct it using the 3 ask method.

1st time: Light reprimand. (Swing rope, verbal cue, slight tap)
2nd time: Medium (tap with a crop, a strong verbal cue, or a stronger tap)
3rd time: All hell breaks loose. You are no longer asking nicely. Make that horse MOVE!

If it is a dangerous behavior, I skip straight to the 3rd one. Why? Simple, I do not want to get hurt, and I sure as hell don't wanna have it happen again.
     
    01-28-2012, 03:56 PM
  #7
Trained
Iride-I got the idea the laminitis was post purchase, but, now that I re-read-could be either.

Lakota-we were posting at the same time-agree totally! A well placed boot works really well, and it is always handy and quick enough!

Anyway, OP, any horse that is not getting exercised will be a bit of a piss ant at times, IMO. He is most likely bored. However-he should behave. I also have, as Northern put it-a left brain one. Very food motivated, and has also done some of the little "tricks" yours tried. The key is to stay on top of ANY move he makes that could mean he don't respect you 1000%. For example, I will bet yours shift his butt in your direction when you go to groom his hindquarters. TO me-that is the beginning of the same disrespect you saw when you were leading him. Mine tries the same strolling crap sometimes too-now it is just a little lift of his foot in protest-and only if I haven't seen him in a while. (he tests EVERY person who handles him still.....) Nothing that even resembles disrespect can be tolerated. EVER.

As far as the eating when you are leading him-remember it takes something like 10X longer (of totally consistent correction) to correct a wrong behavior. Much easier to learn it right the first time, but we all cannot get blank slates, not have the ability to handle a totally unhanded horse.
     
    01-28-2012, 03:56 PM
  #8
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern    
In Parelli, we pick the grazing spot, so the grey area's eliminated. Horse says, "here!" & you say, "No, there!" Then horse sees that you'll let him eat, which takes away the anger, & you're still leader of the herd of two. Also, if you want to mosey along, but horse wants to stay at that spot to eat, don't get into a pulling match on the rope, flick him in hindquarters instead.

Btw, you've got a left-brain horse there: food-motivated, pushy.
This is what I have been trying to do. I don't mind him eating but only when it is safe or okay to do so it's not okay to nearly be pulling riders out of their seat and dragging them to the hedge but it is okay to eat if i'm stood chatting or I have invited him to eat.
     
    01-28-2012, 04:08 PM
  #9
Super Moderator
The problem with that is that the horse will learn to continually be "asking". Is it ok to eat here? Here? Here? At least, that has been my experience.

As to the original title of the thread; I think it was a temper tantrum. But the response needs to be about the same.
     
    01-28-2012, 04:09 PM
  #10
Started
First loss smallest loss - a trader's motto.

You now have a laminitic prone horse who can show signs of aggression,

Personally, I'd seriously consider sending him back.

As there any good reasons to keep him???

Who is going to ride him? - is the horse safe for the rider??????

Weigh the pros and cons - make a list.
Rascaholic and WildAcreFarms like this.
     

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