Saddlebred show horses/ Walkers - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 01:04 PM
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Palomine, you aren't going to change Joe's mind. Don't get upset when he calls you abusive and a liar. He is pretty well set. It doesn't help a bit to try to get into a war with him. Get used to the insults. :)

I have seen a few that will leave the chains on in the stall for a little while. When I get around to a computer, I will see what there is to add.
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post #12 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 01:13 PM
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So even the supporters see chains on the pasterns ? Yet I'm wrong ? Oh well. I know what I see with my own eyes so not gonna be changing my mind anytime soon. Just google saddle seat horses and click images, plenty of examples. Just like in the TWH world. Lots of abusers, who of course ,all claim to not be.
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post #13 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 02:28 PM
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Haha! I'm sorry. I know you were serious, but it's funny.
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post #14 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 02:33 PM
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Im still wonderin why they strive on peppermint? Is it somethin in the mint itself --or because it keeps them in good spirit?

Joe4d-- if the abusers admitted to abusing the horses theyd be sittin in jail.
Theyve outlawed any type of sorring in the TWHBEA shows-- they take thermal images of the horses feet to detect soring-- if the horse has been sored-- off to the alabama slamma and they never show TWHBEA again!!

I am sure the 'tail. Cutting' or 'breaking' has long since been outdated?

I dont like the idea of a horse with more heal than my stilletos but there are people out there that do more damage 'loving' them.
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post #15 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 03:19 PM
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You can still cut (tendons) and set tails. Just like the owners of some breeds of dogs alter the ears and all the other things they do. Just like people getting their noses, ears, chins and other parts altered.

Seems to be the nature of some humans to do these things.
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post #16 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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My issue is with those stupid shoes. If you study hoof function (I took a farrier course), you want to have well developed heels to absorb shock. When you grow a hoof that long the heels and lateral cartilages atrophy. I don't see how a horse can stay sound like that! I've been to some Saddlebred shows and watched/looked at the horses hooves. I don't know how those horse's aren't in pain on both front feet! Navicular syndrome anyone? I know Saddlebred shoeing is not the same as stacking, but I can't see how that is healthy for hoof function! So better than the TWH shoeing, but still not good for the horse.

Toto- they aren't breaking the tail, they are cutting the ligament which holds the tail down. Not everyone does that, but that is what they are doing around here! Along with the use of ginger as well! Not all shows are USEF approved/monitored.

I wasn't talking about it being done to foals, I was talking about having them ban the use of tail sets/tail nicking and padded shoes in all horses after a certain year/age. Maybe the new generation of show horses won't have to suffer like that.

I just don't see what is wrong with getting rid of tail sets, and the padded shoes. That way the horses can still be like horses! and not locked in a barn most of their life with no turnout for the fear that they will loose a shoe and break some hoof off with it or god forbid step on their tail and loose a tiny bit of hair.

If people think abuse isn't happening, they must have their head in the sand. Palomine- it sounds like your barn is well run... I just don't see how those horses can be happy living with no turnout or interaction with other horses (although that goes for a lot of show horses in general)...

The funny thing is these people all claim to "love" their horses and see nothing wrong with it. Yet these same horses crib away at the barn all day long, or develop sterotypical behaviors... Why don't the owners and trainers of these horses put their foot down and ask for rule changes? Put a stop to this in general?

What is wrong with judging a horse on it's natural beauty/Movement? Or having a barefoot horse?

Obviously there are those owners who love their horses and aren't intentionally trying to harm them, but there are just as many owners that are ignorant about what they are actually doing (or the trainer is doing) to their horse. Or maybe the owners just don't care.
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post #17 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 04:00 PM
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I didnt even know about the tail stuff, but bustles was mentioned on another thread. Had to look that up, Shame on the organizations, judges and participants. A complete body harness forcing the tail up and flat on the back ? Now I like saddleseat even less. I do wish I could edit my previous post to be less harsh, but it is sad.
Oh and soring in THW, and stack shoes are alive and well. they just keep finding new ways around the laws and inspectors, and the TWHBEA by turning a blind eye and condones it.
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post #18 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 04:01 PM
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No, Joe. I accept that your mind is set.

Haha, they thrive on peppermints because they are a treat. We crinkle that wrapper and they start POSING. Arching their necks, getting those excited pretty eyes. And we praise them for it. One of Dad's show colts he play with and "lead" him from his stall down the barn and into the crossties just with the crinkly wrapper. Oh boy do some of them get excited.

Why do people think it is okay to put huge pads on a horse's hooves? I've talking about SOME of the Saddlebred show people who seem to think it is okay to have extremely long toes, crushed under/under developed heels, heavy shoes with a pad... Don't get me started in the TWH issues. Now I personally love a TWH that is barefoot and can gait all day long, but what they do in the show ring is just disgusting!
Exactly. SOME of the Saddlebred show people. There is so much involved on this issue, that it isn't really worth getting into. There is too much variance in people, farriers, trainers, natural growth of individual horses' feet... I will agree with you that SOME saddlebred show people take horrid care of feet. We had one stud come in for training that was so bad his right front was over an inch lower at the coronet band than the left. And they wondered why he was going uneven. Bah. SOME people.

There is no way to justify or explain everything as there is just too much variance. I can say that not all are awful. Pads help give length when needed so you don't HAVE to grow the foot out(you could say that you don't have to anyway. Not saying you are wrong.) You see a lot of the horribly long feet in pleasure horses, where pads, even therapeutic pads, are not allowed. The whole pleasure horse thing is getting way to skewed as it is. I am pretty sure changes are in the works for the next few years on the whole thing. You don't see it as much in the highly competitive Five Gaited horses. It would really mess with ability to perform all five gaits. You really only see it with the three gaited ones.

Pads also serve as shock absorbers. Some horses need it with their jackhammer trots to keep from jarring themselves lame.

As for soundness. Well, our horses have to be sound to trot high. If they are in pain in any tiny bit, you lose motion.

And what is with the tail sets? How is it natural to keep a horse stalled 24/7 with something holding his tail up? How is that even comfortable for the horse? Maybe it doesn't rub the horse bloody but still doesn't look like a very happy horse to me! Plus the surgical altering of the horses tail? I just keep asking myself WHY WOULD SOMEONE WANT TO DO THAT?
Please tell me where anything is natural in a human horse relationship. And please show me where you found a statement proclaiming that we are the most naturalistic of people.

How are tail sets natural? They are not.

How is it natural to keep a horse stalled, wearing a set or not? It is not.

How is it comfortable? It probably isn't, but we do our best to make it as comfortable as possible. We specially fit the sets to them, pad them to prevent rubs, make them loose and supple so the horse can move and lay down in them. I know my braces and then retainers were not comfortable at all, but in the name of fashion, I wore them.

Why would we do it? Purely for fashion. Gasp, I know. Way back when horses were the main mode of transportation, it had practical applications, but now, it is just for looks. The high tail balances the overal image with the high neck carriage. It is similar to, but much less traumatic than the cropping of ears on dogs.

How is it done? I will just copy from a previous thread.

Some are hand stretched, some are in "humane braces" where the high tail is just a piece of wire and a "cap" or wig, but most of them require a simple surgical procedure. They are put in a harness that is specifically fit to each horse. At first, several weeks before the surgery, they are put in a bustle which is a really thick crupper to help loosen the muscles and to ensure that the horse will even tolerate wearing the set(You don't want to find this out the day after surgery). After a few weeks of wearing the bustle and hand stretching, a vet comes out and does a simple procedure where the muscles that allow the horse to clamp their tail down with force are nicked. When they heal, the horse still has full use of his tail, they just cannot clamp down with force. It also makes the tail loose enough to be put in a brace do the show ring creating that aforementioned balanced look.

It is purely for fashion now. Not necessary, and they require an absurd amount of care during healing. Every effort is made before, during, and after the surgery to make sure the horse is comfortable and pain free in order to protect the tail. A horse in discomfort will rub his tail, pull his set off, of find some othe way to try to rid himself of the discomfort which will obliterate the tail and cause the horse greater pain. When this happens, often the damage is irreparable. They are pampered, and carefully tended every day until they are fully healed.

Once the procedure is complete, the horse does not need to wear his set 24/7. Show horses only wear their sets a week or two before a show. In the off season, the sets come off. So do the shoes.

And what is with the stretchers?
Stretchers are for resistance and strength training. They are for muscle development. They serve exactly the same purpose as the elastics used in many human fitness programs.

I really wish they would just put a ban in place- no more surgical alterations of the horses tail in any new foals, and get rid of the pads and go either barefoot or in regular shoes... We should no longer be living in the dark ages. Especially when there is more and more proof that the pads are harmful to the horses hoof structure/function. There is no need to do cosmetic surgery on a horse that naturally has a beautiful tail to begin with...
There are many in the industry moving away from the practice of cutting tails. Which is good. I love the look, but hate the care it takes. Luckily, it is legal to show a horse in any class/any division with a natural tail, and many shows, including the world championships have added classes specifically for natural tails. Our judges are our trainers, so we have some that are prejudiced and some that will tie a good horse regardless... And we have some that just play politics and don't actually judge. We are making progress away from it, believe it or not. It is something the industry just has to get used to. Similar to odd colored horses in the ring. A lot of times it is difficult to place on a horse with too much flash or an odd color because he will draw the eye and his every movement and mistake is noticed. A horse with an unset tail sticks out a lot and he will have to be exceptional to place. We are working on it. More and more are seen each year and they are placing better.

As for chains. They are not abusive. They do not hurt the horse, when used alone. When the TWHs are sored, there are chemicals involved. You can't sore a saddlebred.

What they do is encourage the horse to try to step out of them. The feel of them, the movement of them, encourages the horse to step UP and OUT. Some horses react to them, some do not. My sister's QH wouldn't think twice about them. Put them on a hackney(those overly sensitive buggers) and they will hit themselves in the chin.(exaggerating there) That is also why they are not left on. Once the horse is used to them, they no longer have that UP and OUT effect. You will have some who will leave them on, thinking it will help, but really, the chains don't do that much.

I would say our biggest problem as a whole would be drugging. I am pretty sure that is where most of our USEF fines and violations are. We are not free of abuse, though what outsiders see/believe is not often what really is.
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post #19 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 04:18 PM
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If you really want to change this, GET INVOLVED! I would be very happy to help you. I can help set you up with a GOOD trainer, I can help you find a GREAT horse to start this. I would be happy to let you stay with me during the Conventions at the start of the year so that you can come talk to our members, our breeders, our trainers, our owners, and our leaders. I can get you contact info so that you can come in and do a seminar for us and teach us. If you want to change this, then you have to make an example. I can set you up with like minded people in the industry and you can work to get your message across.
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post #20 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 05:08 PM
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Joe, show me a showing discipline that doesn't have SOME trainers who are abusive to win. Just one. I see it in all English showing, All western showing, Endurance, racing, driving etc etc etc.

There will always be the few trainers that paint the world black to the few who only see what they want to see. There are far more trainers, who do not use these tactics.
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