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post #21 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe4d View Post
I didnt even know about the tail stuff, but bustles was mentioned on another thread. Had to look that up, Shame on the organizations, judges and participants. A complete body harness forcing the tail up and flat on the back ? Now I like saddleseat even less. I do wish I could edit my previous post to be less harsh, but it is sad.
Oh and soring in THW, and stack shoes are alive and well. they just keep finding new ways around the laws and inspectors, and the TWHBEA by turning a blind eye and condones it.
Its perfectly fine to feel so strongly about something. I totally agree with you.. they are changing the TWHBEA industry. I doubt theyll remove padded shoes all together but in 2009 when they made that no soring law there were no participants. That means a lot-- they aint takin no.. you know what, lol.

I understand that soring is still around n all but its not around at the shows anymore. Theyve cracked down big time. You get big jail time for soring and they kick you out of the TWHBEA-- ya cant show there ever again. In my opinion- they shouldntt be able to participate in any of the events or be alowed to have horses ever again.
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post #22 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 06:13 PM
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Kicked out ? Baloney,, convicted animal abusers are handed weeks long suspensions. Whipty doo. Any crack down was because the videos hit national news and public awarness was raised. NOt out of any sense of shame, or wanting to do whats right. Without the public awareness it would be just business as usual, just like the saddle seat shows. I cant speak about other show or disciplin abuses. As I havent witnessed it first hand like I have with walkers and Saddlebreds. And just like TWH's I feel those that support the shows , judge the shows, write the rules for the shows, and spend money on the shows and the sanctioning organizations are just as guilty.
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post #23 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Allison Finch View Post
Joe, show me a showing discipline that doesn't have SOME trainers who are abusive to win.

Just because every discipline has abusive trainers doesn't mean that every discipline is created equal. If one or two people complained about saddleseat then we could just ignore their opinions. But when threads like this pop up every few months...? Maybe, just maybe, when so many people complain, that's because there's something to complain about.

Maybe it is possible to do saddleseat without the excessively long toes etc. but what proportion of riders do it that way? And how often do those people win? Is there one abusive rider for every 20 good ones, or is it the other way around? How common does abusive riding/training have to be before you come to the conclusion that the discipline itself is the problem?
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post #24 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 07:09 PM
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Public awareness was raised about the atrocities done to the TWH.

Those horrible things are not done to saddlebreds. A very well bred too show saddlebred plainly will not tolerate it. They are not kind and tolerant TWHs who placidly take their abuses. A high mettled saddlebred when exposed to prolonged pain and/or suffering will become dangerous creatures.

Again an again we have said it, and I will say it again. The TWH and the American Saddlebred are two different breeds. Thy are not treate or trained the same. They do not act, move, or think the same. They are both completely different. There are reasons we do not have combined shows anymore. There is a reason we willingly accept he rules and governance of the USEF. Yeah, not all of our shows are rated. We still play by the rules for the most part.

Just because we share a saddle type, and a few tools, does not mean we are the same.

Goodness, if we didn't want more outsiders and more people to get involved with the breed, to own, ride and yes SHOW, why would we put any money into marketing. Why would we offer a nationwide free lesson program to get people to come try it.

We WANT more people to get involved with the American Saddlebred.

The reason we get a thread every couple of months bout this nonsense is because of people who see and do not seek to understand. "I don't have much, if any, experience with this, but I hate it! I don't understand so I hate it. It is different, so I hate it."

Also, just because there are problems with one breed who choose to use a certain type of saddle, does not mean that all breeds that choose that saddle have those problems. We have problems yes, but one breed has made the whole discipline evil in the eyes of everyone else.

IF we were guilty of the atrocities done to TWHs, why are we not checked by the DQP? Why are we not subject to the same treatment by the ruling bodies? Perhaps because we are not at the same faults requiring such treatment.

Once more, the American Saddlebred and the Tennessee Walking horse are two completely different breeds and it should not be assumed that they receive the same treatment v
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post #25 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 07:11 PM
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There will be 'bad apples' in every single discipline- bad riders, bad trainers, bad barns. And so it's easy to take what IS abusive behaviour, and then lump every single 'breed' or 'discipline' specific attribute or training method in with those abusive behaviours. I don't think the solution is for your average rider to say 'x, y, and z need to be removed / banned' because unless you are IN that industry, or have really studied that discipline you don't know all of the ins and outs, what is or isn't abusive. The same thing goes, like I said, for every single discipline. And I definitely don't think posting examples of the absolute worst are any way of going about 'proving a point'. Like I said, the 'bottom of the barrel' exists in all disciplines, what we need to see are the majority, the subtler (at least not blatantly obvious) examples on a larger scale. Pointing to one wacko that calls himself a trainer and saying 'this needs to be banned because LOOK AT THIS GUY' doesn't give you very much ground to stand on, does it?
I don't know very much about the Saddleseat discipline, it seems like it was developed to showcase the unique qualities of a breed. That's what it needs to get back to, the unique qualities of a breed, not the absolute EXTREMES we are seeing- which means, as in Western Pleasure, HUS, Dressage, etc. it really does come back to the judges, doesn't it? If the judges (who do know the discipline inside and out) start penalizing the EXTREME lengths gone to by some (not all, some) trainers, people will follow the trends. It isn't going to happen over night, but chances are it will happen.

I don't think it's right to penalize an entire group of equestrians, because as multiple people in this thread have stated, there ARE the barns that do things fairly and spoil the horses rotten. Now your average rider might go in there and see some practices they don't like- but then these Saddleseat riders might go into your WP or HUS barn and see things that THEY don't like, that aren't considered abusive / inhumane / abnormal.
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post #26 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 07:15 PM
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It's equal, trust me. Look at pencil-pushing western pleasure horses without true gaits. Look at dressage riders at ALL levels who use rollkur constantly and who can't preform a true collected trot or piaffe to save their lives. Look at racing of any type with the doping and running 1 & 2 year olds basically into the ground. Look at reining and their futurities with 2 year old performing as 6 & 7 year olds should. Should I continue? It's everywhere and it ebbs and flows as far as who is in the limelight. It's not so long ago that steeplechasing was being hit hard for the number of fatalities they had.
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post #27 of 80 Old 03-31-2013, 10:51 PM
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That saddlebred has longer feet that this walker with pads. I'm not justifying 'big lick' but it sure seems a lot like the pot callin the kettle black here.

Just remember theyre using those contraptions to teach them to stay in pace too. A horse that is not naturally gaited in pads like that.. Why? Isnt it more strenuous to make them gait and hold their tails up like that unnaturally?

The poor SBs always end up looking real swayed backed when a rider is mounted as well-- hollowing of the back is an indication of pain.

Im not takin up for 'big lick' but SBs arent any better at all. They just havent got the attention the walkers have.. yet.
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post #28 of 80 Old 04-01-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ponyboy View Post
But when threads like this pop up every few months...? Maybe, just maybe, when so many people complain, that's because there's something to complain about.
This thread and many others were not started in an effort to truly learn anything about the discipline, they are more of a lynch mob thread. It is like getting on any dog forum and bringing up the topic like "I think all Pit Bulls are killers" They get attention. People have strong reactions to the topic and sadly it is more often then not misinformed.

There are people on here like LadyDreamer that try very hard to explain things but... talking to a wall makes little difference in the long run. Some people are simply unwilling to hear anything different then they THINK they already know. LD, I think you are a saint for continuing to try.

It has been said a few thousand times but Walkers and Saddlebreds are very very different and often, the "Abuse" that is talked about in referrence to "saddleseat" is not in the Saddlebred industry. Yes, there are BAD Saddlebred trainers. I have known a few. Fortuneately most of those got their just rewards for the abuses they practiced.

Sometimes I read the critisisms and just thing "what?" because they are so far from the truth it scares me. Maybe after so many years of fighting for my beloved Saddlebreds, I am simply worn out.

In my many years on this earth and all the shows I have attended over the years, I can honestly say that I saw NOTHING at any Saddlebred show as bad as I saw at some other breed shows. I didn't see blood draining, spur scars, bleeding mouths, broken spirits etc.. There truly is something in all disciplines and it COULD be argued that all showing brings out the worst in people. That too might be true but then... don't get me started on what I saw at the trail rides and the back yard horse people. Abuse is done by stupid or cruel individuals and people should only be judged on THEIR individual actions, not the actions of others who just so happen to enjoy the same activity.

As far as the man in the video's posted earlier with the "speed racking" Saddlebred. That made me sick to my stomach. I wanted to gather a group of friends and go knock him off the horse and beat the pulp out of him. That poor dear old horse should be enjoying some casual trail rides and lots of pampering. Instead he is subjected to an ape bouncing around on his back while IT screams at him and yanks on his mouth. Don't judge the Saddlebred breed by the few apes that are out there. That is NOT the majority.

Oh and on the "long toes and long heels" thing... That too is not participated in by all. There are many many more short hooved horses in the ring doing very well.

Last edited by Inga; 04-01-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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post #29 of 80 Old 04-01-2013, 05:23 PM
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Toto, the SB holds itself "hollow" largely because it is built into their DNA. They hold themselves head high since birth, not because harsh hands and bit make them do it (although some do use those methods).

Hollowness is not evidence of any pain in these foals. As for sway, I have heard that there is a genetic trait in this breed that predisposes some horses to this problem, but I am not well versed on this.
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post #30 of 80 Old 04-01-2013, 06:03 PM
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Sure some Saddlebred's have a sway back but certainly NOT the majority. Conformation is part of the judging. This video shows how they do that. Once the performance part is over, they line up and unsaddle to show off the horses comformation.

That is not in all classes, obviously.
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Last edited by Inga; 04-01-2013 at 06:07 PM.
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