"There's abuse in every discipline!" - Page 2
 
 

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"There's abuse in every discipline!"

This is a discussion on "There's abuse in every discipline!" within the Horse Talk forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Horses category
  • Western pleasure abuse
  • Do dawgs boots use inhumane practices

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    04-04-2013, 06:37 PM
  #11
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by equiniphile    
I don't think anyone here is using it as an excuse for abuse; rather, they're arguing against those that condemn an entire discipline because of a select few that do use inhumane practices.
But in some disciplines it's not just a "select few" who use inhumane practices. In some, those practices are the status quo. Why is it okay to make positive generalizations about disciplines but not negative ones?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskia    
Using this, rugging is abuse, stabling is abuse, floating is abuse, shoeing is abuse, clipping is abuse etc, etc etc.
None of those things are done in an attempt to alter the horse's behavior, so none of them apply to what I said. Maybe I should have specified that I was talking about abusive training practices.
     
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    04-04-2013, 07:09 PM
  #12
Weanling
I find that when Money or bragging rights and animals cross paths there is going to be people that will do whatever they can to win even if its not best for the animal.
So an so's horse has a naturally amazing award winning gate, "My" doesn't but I can have my farrier do.... and they my horse looks as good as So an so's.
Or man judges really like small feet on 1500lb halter horses so we breed a 1500lb horse with really small feet, then ask why is my horse lame all the time.

On and on it goes horses, dogs it all ends the same I want to win if that means my animal losses ok as long as I win
     
    04-04-2013, 07:38 PM
  #13
Started
I think it's really rare to make any large amount of money through competition with horses without some degree of "cutting corners".

You could call pushing 2 year old western pleasure horses "abuse".
You could call putting a big bit and a martingale on a OTTB that's scared out of its mind over a course of fences "abuse".
You could call a natural horsemanship trainer who yanks on the rope halter "abuse".

I just think it's funny when a eventer says stock horse showing is abusive, when they've never done it before. And I'm sure an eventer would feel the same way if a natural horsemanship person called eventing abusive (and had never done it before).

And I think calling something or someone or some practice "abusive" and that everything is "abusive" is only adding to the problem. I would rather praise the actions of a select few who do the right thing, or to go out and try and make a difference by doing the right thing, then crying about why life is unfair and out of your control.

For example, I think parts of western pleasure showing are abusive, especially big western pleasure. But I happen to like the sport, so I'm trying to train a western pleasure horse my way, with my good conscience, and hopefully inspire people to do the same thing. But when someone comes and says in a declarative statement "western pleasure is abusive", it demeans people like me who are really trying to change the way the sport is done from the inside, instead of crying about it.
     
    04-04-2013, 07:43 PM
  #14
Yearling
It's the owner that make the sport abusive, not the sport itself. A western pleasure horse can be trained non-abusively and reach the same level as an abused one. I've seen a girl train her AQH nicely, and go to Congress and get in the top 10 every time. It all depends on the trainer. Now if the abuse had consequences and was enforced, you would see it a whole lot less
     
    04-05-2013, 01:22 AM
  #15
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyBob    
I find that when Money or bragging rights and animals cross paths there is going to be people that will do whatever they can to win even if its not best for the animal.
Not just animals. When some people get into competition, they will abuse other people (e.g. Many sports coaches), their kids, or themselves in order to win, because winning is what matters.
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    04-05-2013, 07:50 AM
  #16
Trained
Not only is there abuse in every discipline, its pretty much always been there.
Posted via Mobile Device
     
    04-05-2013, 10:41 AM
  #17
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf    
Not just animals. When some people get into competition, they will abuse other people (e.g. Many sports coaches), their kids, or themselves in order to win, because winning is what matters.
you're right I was thinking about that after I had posted last night great point. So the question is how important is "winning" what are you willing to do to win. When someone answers that question "they will do whatever it takes to win" the win is more important then the well fair for anyone or anything around them. That is not a person I want to be, or be around, and I hope I raise my kids to not be that way. Try yes, do your best yes, do whatever it takes to win No.
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    04-05-2013, 06:22 PM
  #18
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by CowboyBob    
I find that when Money or bragging rights and animals cross paths there is going to be people that will do whatever they can to win even if its not best for the animal.
So an so's horse has a naturally amazing award winning gate, "My" doesn't but I can have my farrier do.... and they my horse looks as good as So an so's.
Or man judges really like small feet on 1500lb halter horses so we breed a 1500lb horse with really small feet, then ask why is my horse lame all the time.

On and on it goes horses, dogs it all ends the same I want to win if that means my animal losses ok as long as I win

You're right that it all goes back to competition. That's why I never competed (except in schooling shows).
     
    04-05-2013, 07:28 PM
  #19
Weanling
The trouble with saying that competition creates or is the cause for abuse and cruelty is that it leads to good, compassionate people not wanting to compete. Which then leaves the floor open for those who will do anything to win. And because there aren't enough people who acheive the top results through good training, the people who take the abusive short cuts keep winning, which makes even more good people want to quit competing, or leads them into more and more abusive practices to try to keep up.

If we had more people going in to competition, with a reputation for good, fair training and lots of hard work and winning, the prevalence of abuse would reduce, simply because newcomers would see that there is another option. Granted your always going to have those who want a quick fix, but hopefully with better role models around, there wouldn't be so much pressure to move to less than desirable training practices.

That said, if certain results can only be achieved through those abusive practices, and those results are rewarded in the ring by the judges, that's when things have really gone overboard. The example that comes to mind is the movement of those "Big Lick" type shows. If that exaggerated movement can't be achieved through breeding and training alone, then it should be penalized by judges, not rewarded. *Disclaimer, I don't know much about the Big Lick world, so if I'm wrong, please excuse me.*

I ride primarily Dressage. There are abusive practices in the Dressage arena, particularly higher up. But the presence of those practices is not going to make me quit training and working my horse in a fair manner, nor to stop showing. I will take my mare as far as we are capable of going while maintaining my principles and considering her and my abilities.
     
    04-05-2013, 07:32 PM
  #20
Green Broke
I have noticed that people are quick to accuse others of abuse when they have little to no understanding, or even exposure, to a discipline.

They see a video, do a search on the internet, and suddenly run with the dab of information they have gotten.

And when we do that we, as horsemen, are no better to other horsemen than the extreme animals rightists that believe all horses should be allowed to go feral and all riding should be illegal.
     

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