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Thinking of not gelding

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        01-12-2013, 06:30 PM
      #21
    Started
    Part of the reasons that cattle and pigs are done sans tranquilization is two fold. The first is that many tranquilizers are not approved by the FDA or USDA for use in those species due to residue. Many tranquilizers also cause adverse effects such as excessive salivation or bloat in ruminants. There is also an issue of the drugs taking 10 minutes or so to take effect during which these animals which are often unhandled are in close contact with humans and thus panic. This panic state can lead the to working through the drugs. These procedures are often done when the animal is a few weeks to months old. Its often done VERY quickly.

    Horses tend to be handled more by people, as a result, it can create difficulty when catching them if done without tranquilization. Horses do not have the widespread prohibition on many drugs as they are not always classified as food animals. In addition, we often geld horses at an older age. Horses also tend to be more, lets say dramatic about injuries then cows. Cows are well known for getting infections, walling them off and continuing with life. Horses get infections, have immunologic melt downs, go septic and die.

    While I am glad that Janna had a good experience with her horse. I would not do that to my horse nor would I advise the OP to do that. The OP has a horse that is difficult to catch and who has a long memory. Castration without sedation or analgesia is going make a LASTING impression on the OP's horse which would make that horse harder to handle in my opinion. I say this as the owner of a mare with a very long memory. Get some good credits in your horse experiences with people bank account before you make a a negative withdrawal.
         
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        01-12-2013, 06:36 PM
      #22
    Trained
    Another factor is that cattle tend to die from anesthesia. The biggest issue is pure economics. It is cheaper to do it that way.

    It is absolutely horrible to castrate a horse that you intend to use as a non-food animal without the benefit of anesthesia. The only possible reason could be that you are too cheap to pay a veterinarian to do it. This is not 1899. This is 2013. Unless you live in a third world country and are impoverished, there is no excuse to treat a horse that is intended to be a riding animal that way.
         
        01-12-2013, 06:58 PM
      #23
    Weanling
    All I can say is...ouch! Do you think castration is as simple as earpiercing? It sounds excruciatingly painful to do without some sort of anesthetic. Ask the guys who have had vasectomies...they know. You can inflict any kind of pain on a human or animal if you hold them down real tight, but I wouldn't want to do it!
         
        01-12-2013, 07:06 PM
      #24
    Weanling
    A bit harsh to not even give him a local anaesthetic or analgesic... especially since it is an invasive procedure with the testicle actually removed in horses, rather than just the testicular artery and vas deferens crushed and left to die off as is often done in young farm animals. Many young farm animals are often just elastic banded as soon as they drop after a week old or so, so its not really a far cry from what we do to horses. So yeah, pretty bad not to even give him a painkiller.
         
        01-12-2013, 07:12 PM
      #25
    Banned
    When I was younger (much younger - 17 I believe) I ignorantly participated in the unanesthetised gelding of a 15.2hh three year old.......I had no idea my boss was going to pull the horses legs out from under him, hog tie him, and geld him without anesthetic.....it's sick, cruel, cheap and barbaric. If somebody thinks that slicing open a horses scrotum, withdrawing the testicles, crushing the tubes and cutting them out is ok and the horse can't feel it, then they need their head checked.

    I don't think any of us would appreciated being cut open without anesthetic.....horses have nerve endings too!

    That is an incident (among many) that I will put down in my book as a 'how not to geld'.......

    There is absolutely no excuse reasonable enough in my mind that makes this acceptable.
         
        01-12-2013, 07:24 PM
      #26
    Yearling
    Is it even legal, I certainly hope it isn't in the UK, they are sometimes resentful enough with sedation and pain killer. There would be no heavenly reason I would ever inflict that kind of pain on anything I own, our sheep the only time we haven't eaten the boys, (we only have 14) were done by the vet as we wanted to see how they matured a bit, they even got a local, pain killers and Antibioctics.

    Surely gelding them with out anything will send them into shock and kill them a lot of the time.
         
        01-12-2013, 07:30 PM
      #27
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rbarlo32    
    Is it even legal, I certainly hope it isn't in the UK, they are sometimes resentful enough with sedation and pain killer. There would be no heavenly reason I would ever inflict that kind of pain on anything I own, our sheep the only time we haven't eaten the boys, (we only have 14) were done by the vet as we wanted to see how they matured a bit, they even got a local, pain killers and Antibioctics.

    Surely gelding them with out anything will send them into shock and kill them a lot of the time.
    I'm not sure about the shock and death thing.....but it nearly killed me!!! I guarantee they are just like people who 'go out of themselves or to another place' when something traumatic is occurring......I don't like to use anthropomorphism with horses so wont speak to the shock and horror the horse may ir maynkt be experiencinh......however the physiology and the fact that they can feel a fly on their sides speaks volumes as to whether or not they can REALLY FEEL what's going on.....
         
        01-12-2013, 07:33 PM
      #28
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rookie    
    I guess my feeling is that 50 - 75% of a stallions value is in his personality.
    I very strongly disagree with this notion. I believe that a stallion's value should be entirely on his health, conformation and pedigree, in that order, and without exception. If he doesn't have ALL THREE of those, then he doesn't need testicles.

    Personality can be changed. Sure, it's not easy, but we all see these stories on this forum, of the poor damaged poneh who with love and respect turns into a super horse that dotes on any human it can see. There is no reason that a stallion should be exempt from that. Additionally, this goes back to the pedigree part - a good breeder will consistently produce colts that are well handled and ready to become good-natured stallions. A breeder that cannot do this should not be breeding at all IMO.
         
        01-12-2013, 07:50 PM
      #29
    Started
    I understand where you are coming from. I agree that a breeder should breed horses that are easily handled and have good natured as stallions. That's a nature/nurture debate. A good breeder starts out with a well mannered stallion that produces well mannered git. Is that the result of genetics or good handling?

    What I mean by personality is that a stallion is not worth much if you can't handle him enough to show him, if you can't safely have him around other horses. If all your stallion can do safely is stand out in a field and naturally cover mares there is no real value in that stallion. If your stallion has talent, great conformation and awesome blood lines but is a hazard to have at a show than the other three go to waste.

    You are correct we do see horses change personality wise with training. That said, its a hard row to hoe and testosterone can add to that complication. Some horses are more willing than others. To have the work be worth the pay off, the stallion would in my opinion, have to be a one in a million horse being owned/trained by that very rare combination of experience, perseverance and skill. A dangerous horse is not worth having, stallions are no exception to that. I have seen a lot of bad behavior tolerated by stallions because they are stallions (biting, head shy, not leading well, etc).

    Performance is great but personality and willingness are the cornerstones of performance.
         
        01-12-2013, 07:53 PM
      #30
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rookie    
    I understand where you are coming from. I agree that a breeder should breed horses that are easily handled and have good natured as stallions. That's a nature/nurture debate. A good breeder starts out with a well mannered stallion that produces well mannered git. Is that the result of genetics or good handling?

    What I mean by personality is that a stallion is not worth much if you can't handle him enough to show him, if you can't safely have him around other horses. If all your stallion can do safely is stand out in a field and naturally cover mares there is no real value in that stallion. If your stallion has talent, great conformation and awesome blood lines but is a hazard to have at a show than the other three go to waste.

    You are correct we do see horses change personality wise with training. That said, its a hard row to hoe and testosterone can add to that complication. Some horses are more willing than others. To have the work be worth the pay off, the stallion would in my opinion, have to be a one in a million horse being owned/trained by that very rare combination of experience, perseverance and skill. A dangerous horse is not worth having, stallions are no exception to that. I have seen a lot of bad behavior tolerated by stallions because they are stallions (biting, head shy, not leading well, etc).

    Performance is great but personality and willingness are the cornerstones of performance.
    But all that is just bad horsemanship, which is a whole different issue. Good horsemanship on the part of the owner and/or breeder should not mean that a colt gets to keep his knackers.
         

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