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Thinking of not gelding

4K views 35 replies 17 participants last post by  nikelodeon79 
#1 ·
I have a coming 2 year old Classic American Shetland Pony. We attempted to geld him this past fall, but he would not go down with the anesthesia. It was a very traumatic experience, and set our training back a lot. He hadn't been handled a lot by the prior owner and was fairly wild.

We have now gotten him back to the point of being able to touch/pet him and he runs towards us rather than away from us when he sees us coming. We will obviously be doing a lot more training as the weather improves.

The initial plan was to geld him in the early spring when our other pony (a coming yearling) gets gelded. However, I'm considering keeping him intact. He has good conformation and good bloodlines. I'm planning on showing him at halter.

We have four geldings on our property, plus the two colts. There are no mares.

Thoughts?
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#3 ·
More importantly are you prepared for the possible stud attitude? I have met 2 studs this last year that were amazing until one day they just decided they were studs (One was 3 and one was 4-6). One was PTS (He went from puppy dog to hospitalizing his expeirenced owner) the other was gelded. With proper training and handling studs can be great but it takes a special skill at handling studs and the possibility is always there that he could fill the stereotype. So not to be a downer but this should be considered heavily ... there were no mares around either stud I met this last year either and they both just snapped one day. Ive met good and bad studs but just keep in mind there is the possibility...
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#4 ·
Hmm, it might make handling him further a problem, plus, I know over here in England, lots of mini breeds (shetlands, falas Etc) are unwanted, free to good home and there is no call for them, especially in the current economic climate. But that's in the UK, if there's a large demand for breeding them, then fair dues. However, if you have minimal intent on breeding him, then I'd have him cut (I understand you had problems, and he might not like you for a while after, but it sure beats him being all pent up and full of testosterone) I'd get him snipped before he gets into that stallion mentality (and small breeds are a pain for getting that real stallion attitude, and they find ways of getting out and getting to local mares - their size makes it so much easier!)
 
#6 ·
I guess my feeling is that 50 - 75% of a stallions value is in his personality. If this horse can't be easily caught, and is slow to warm up than really those are signs that he would not be a good stud. There are a lot of pretty stallions who are difficult to work with. In my opinion those are to difficult work with to be of value as breeding stock. If he is not easy to handle at this age, when he realizes he is a stud and all that goes with the stud could make him harder to handle. If you do decide to keep him as a stallion than you have to put all the work into making him 100% great to handle. He can't be 95% or even 98% he needs to have 100% perfect ground behaviors 100% of the time. At this time, he does not have those and that needs to happen.

Housing is another concern. Where will he live? Can you safely keep him away from the mare and possibly (probably) the geldings as well?

The other concern is that he is sensitive to anesthesia and is that an indication of other less then ideal genetic conditions? I would just worry about him passing on that drug sensitivity to offspring. Likewise, if his behavior worsens and you have to sedate him for routine things that can complicate life. Ie. if he can't be easily handled and is not safe for many vet procedures, or farrier procedures. Which would add to his risk.

I would geld him, but I am going to say geld in 99.9% of the cases because stallions come with a whole lot of extra stuff that complicates life.
 
#28 ·
I guess my feeling is that 50 - 75% of a stallions value is in his personality.
I very strongly disagree with this notion. I believe that a stallion's value should be entirely on his health, conformation and pedigree, in that order, and without exception. If he doesn't have ALL THREE of those, then he doesn't need testicles.

Personality can be changed. Sure, it's not easy, but we all see these stories on this forum, of the poor damaged poneh who with love and respect turns into a super horse that dotes on any human it can see. There is no reason that a stallion should be exempt from that. Additionally, this goes back to the pedigree part - a good breeder will consistently produce colts that are well handled and ready to become good-natured stallions. A breeder that cannot do this should not be breeding at all IMO.
 
#7 ·
I think the best plan would be to have him gelded... I'm just considering the possibility of keeping him intact.

Hr does already have a bit of a "studdy" attitude, so I don't think he'd be an easy stallion, for sure.
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#8 ·
My plan would be to keep him with the geldings. We don't have a mare.

I think the issue with the anesthesia was that he was so un trusting (we had just gotten him) that he simply refused to go down. It was a huge mistake to not wait on the castration until he trusted us more. :(
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#9 ·
I own a 6 yr old tb stallion that I have had since he was 4 months. He is well behaved and actually easy to mange but there were some moments as a 2 and 3 yr old when he went "wow I'm a stallion" that were potentially extremely dangerous. I would suggest a few things for you to think about even though your guy is little. Who is on the property - we have no children or boarders to make a novice oops. How good is your fencing - be honest with yourself because he will test it hard especially if the mare down the road goes into heat. Who is going to handle him - mine is handled 90% by me, occasionally by my husband under my supervision so his handling is consistent. Why do you need a stallion - standing a stallion to the public can be aggravating and is not often a money maker, if you want to breed a few mares for yourself its a lot less work to drop them off at a reproduction station and a lot less risk and often cheaper to buy someone else's weanlings if you just want to work with youngstock.
Not having mares on the property will be helpful as they can cause as many problems as the stud can - some are determined hussies when hormonal.
That being said I love my guy and his stallioness - he has a strong sense of self and of justice, and that extra spark and presence and I have no regrets on keeping him intact.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Keeping him a stud you have to definitely remember not to let him get away with anything. A lot of people end up with mean minis and Shetlands because they some bad behavior is cute, and it escalates from there.

Don't let it do anything you wouldn't let a full size stud do.

It's your choice.
But if its skittish I wouldn't keep it a stud.


I just got my Shetland stud gelded.
We didn't give him anything to calm him.

He was dropped in the pasture ( legs are tied up tight so he could kick or even get up)
I sat on his neck, he was snipped and stood back up.

I don't like drugging them if I don't have to.
 
#15 ·
I just got my Shetland stud gelded.
We didn't give him anything to calm him.

He was dropped in the pasture ( legs are tied up tight so he could kick or even get up)
I sat on his neck, he was snipped and stood back up.

I don't like drugging them if I don't have to.
Holy manhood snatch! I think my husband just passed out.
 
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#14 ·
We don't give anything to our livestock (cows, pigs, goats and sheep). We just flip em, clip em, and send them back to momma. It takes on average 30 seconds per castration. I have never done this with a horse before so I don't know anything about that. With the livestock its less traumatizing to get it done quickly rather than dragging it out. As soon as they reach momma they forget it ever happened. I can't see this working the same with horses though. Idk but I'm interested in learning :)
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#16 ·
He did great. The next day he was trotting around.
Acting like nothing happened and didn't even swell bad.
Didn't act like it scared him or anything as he was still perfectly happy coming up to me for attention.

I know quite a few people that do it the way I had mine done.
 
#21 ·
Part of the reasons that cattle and pigs are done sans tranquilization is two fold. The first is that many tranquilizers are not approved by the FDA or USDA for use in those species due to residue. Many tranquilizers also cause adverse effects such as excessive salivation or bloat in ruminants. There is also an issue of the drugs taking 10 minutes or so to take effect during which these animals which are often unhandled are in close contact with humans and thus panic. This panic state can lead the to working through the drugs. These procedures are often done when the animal is a few weeks to months old. Its often done VERY quickly.

Horses tend to be handled more by people, as a result, it can create difficulty when catching them if done without tranquilization. Horses do not have the widespread prohibition on many drugs as they are not always classified as food animals. In addition, we often geld horses at an older age. Horses also tend to be more, lets say dramatic about injuries then cows. Cows are well known for getting infections, walling them off and continuing with life. Horses get infections, have immunologic melt downs, go septic and die.

While I am glad that Janna had a good experience with her horse. I would not do that to my horse nor would I advise the OP to do that. The OP has a horse that is difficult to catch and who has a long memory. Castration without sedation or analgesia is going make a LASTING impression on the OP's horse which would make that horse harder to handle in my opinion. I say this as the owner of a mare with a very long memory. Get some good credits in your horse experiences with people bank account before you make a a negative withdrawal.
 
#22 ·
Another factor is that cattle tend to die from anesthesia. The biggest issue is pure economics. It is cheaper to do it that way.

It is absolutely horrible to castrate a horse that you intend to use as a non-food animal without the benefit of anesthesia. The only possible reason could be that you are too cheap to pay a veterinarian to do it. This is not 1899. This is 2013. Unless you live in a third world country and are impoverished, there is no excuse to treat a horse that is intended to be a riding animal that way.
 
#23 ·
All I can say is...ouch! Do you think castration is as simple as earpiercing? It sounds excruciatingly painful to do without some sort of anesthetic. Ask the guys who have had vasectomies...they know. You can inflict any kind of pain on a human or animal if you hold them down real tight, but I wouldn't want to do it!
 
#24 ·
A bit harsh to not even give him a local anaesthetic or analgesic... especially since it is an invasive procedure with the testicle actually removed in horses, rather than just the testicular artery and vas deferens crushed and left to die off as is often done in young farm animals. Many young farm animals are often just elastic banded as soon as they drop after a week old or so, so its not really a far cry from what we do to horses. So yeah, pretty bad not to even give him a painkiller.
 
#25 ·
When I was younger (much younger - 17 I believe) I ignorantly participated in the unanesthetised gelding of a 15.2hh three year old.......I had no idea my boss was going to pull the horses legs out from under him, hog tie him, and geld him without anesthetic.....it's sick, cruel, cheap and barbaric. If somebody thinks that slicing open a horses scrotum, withdrawing the testicles, crushing the tubes and cutting them out is ok and the horse cant feel it, then they need their head checked.

I don't think any of us would appreciated being cut open without anesthetic.....horses have nerve endings too!:evil:

That is an incident (among many) that I will put down in my book as a 'how not to geld'.......

There is absolutely no excuse reasonable enough in my mind that makes this acceptable.
 
#26 ·
Is it even legal, I certainly hope it isn't in the UK, they are sometimes resentful enough with sedation and pain killer. There would be no heavenly reason I would ever inflict that kind of pain on anything I own, our sheep the only time we haven't eaten the boys, (we only have 14) were done by the vet as we wanted to see how they matured a bit, they even got a local, pain killers and Antibioctics.

Surely gelding them with out anything will send them into shock and kill them a lot of the time.
 
#27 ·
I'm not sure about the shock and death thing.....but it nearly killed me!!! I guarantee they are just like people who 'go out of themselves or to another place' when something traumatic is occurring......I don't like to use anthropomorphism with horses so wont speak to the shock and horror the horse may ir maynkt be experiencinh......however the physiology and the fact that they can feel a fly on their sides speaks volumes as to whether or not they can REALLY FEEL what's going on.....
 
#29 ·
I understand where you are coming from. I agree that a breeder should breed horses that are easily handled and have good natured as stallions. Thats a nature/nurture debate. A good breeder starts out with a well mannered stallion that produces well mannered git. Is that the result of genetics or good handling?

What I mean by personality is that a stallion is not worth much if you can't handle him enough to show him, if you can't safely have him around other horses. If all your stallion can do safely is stand out in a field and naturally cover mares there is no real value in that stallion. If your stallion has talent, great conformation and awesome blood lines but is a hazard to have at a show than the other three go to waste.

You are correct we do see horses change personality wise with training. That said, its a hard row to hoe and testosterone can add to that complication. Some horses are more willing than others. To have the work be worth the pay off, the stallion would in my opinion, have to be a one in a million horse being owned/trained by that very rare combination of experience, perseverance and skill. A dangerous horse is not worth having, stallions are no exception to that. I have seen a lot of bad behavior tolerated by stallions because they are stallions (biting, head shy, not leading well, etc).

Performance is great but personality and willingness are the cornerstones of performance.
 
#30 ·
But all that is just bad horsemanship, which is a whole different issue. Good horsemanship on the part of the owner and/or breeder should not mean that a colt gets to keep his knackers.
 
#31 ·
We have castrated calves with either the banding at birth or with cutting them. Actually there are quite a few farmers who castrate their calves with the cutting method. It's much like a colt getting cut/gelded. Except the fact that the calf is either held down (at branding time (a couple weeks old) or stuck in a squeeze chute (weaned calves) and there is no pain killer given. We were advised to cut the calves at the weaning time (kind of crazy because of more stress), we did that two years. Lost a calf the second year and immediately changed our methods to banding at birth.
There is now a law that in order to cut the calves it has to be a veterinarian doing it.
With any colts we've had born or bought we had the vet out. Even for our 3 year old wild welsh cross stallion that we bought. It only cost us $100 a horse back then. I know that prices have gone up, but still I think it's more humane.
 
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