Just tragic. He was born with meconium staining so he and Zenny were taken over to Rood and Riddle for observation, but sadly didn't make it.
What a tragedy, to have lost Z14 in a paddock accident, and then to lose Z16, being a full sibling. And with neither Cozmic One nor Ziconic making any waves (although they must be given due time, and we'll see how it all goes) that's more of a loss of what genetics the Queen has to give to us racing fans.
I'm guessing she'll see War Front again in May. She was left open for 2015, and I don't really see them not breeding her again this year.
Just goes to show, you can have the most fabulous farm and the best quality of mare and stallion in the world, and all the money in the world and still end up with tragedy. And if that's the case, what hope do the rest of us peons have.
'Us Peons" have a much better chance. The very highly bred, in-bred and line-bred horses have the poorest survival rates of all horses. The 'hot bloods' are far more problematic than the old cold blooded, thicker skinned horses ever thought of being.
We have horses that are cutting bred crosses on the old Foundation Lines. We hardly ever lose a foal. Most mares foal on pasture unassisted. We never have a IgG immunity problem even though I have the kits and check them if I breed to an outside stallion. We have never had a blood incompatibility problem. We watch the babies very closely but seldom have any problems at all with the mares or the foals.
The main things we do is make sure their diets (before and after foaling) are balanced for Ca:P and make sure they get plenty of Vitamin A. We have not had to 'clean' a mare in many years. We no longer breed a lot of mares, but we had 6 foals last year (all uneventful), weaned 6 foals (all healthy, straight and strong) and will have 11 foals coming this year by 5 different stallions. We have 1 mare bred to a son of High Brow Cat, 3 bred to a son of Dun It With A Twist, 1 bred to a Real Gun son, 2 bred to our Colonel Freckles horse and 4 bred to our Percheron Draft horse. We had one additional mare that was pasture bred to the Dun It horse that slipped a set of twins a month ago. We have 1 foal on the ground. She dropped her on a stormy night and we have not even had them in yet. They are still running on 80 acres with 3 other pg mares. That baby is straight, strong, and runs like a race horse.
In addition to these, we have one boarded mare that we will bring in and watch. She is in foal by shipped semen to a very renowned Reined Cowhorse stallion in California. That one we will handle per owner's instructions. Her owner lives in Dallas.
We will bring the maidens in and have them foal at the ranch as we will the mares bred to the draft stud. I have not decided yet if I will put them in big foaling pens or on a small pasture. We do not expect bigger foals from the mares bred to the draft stud. But, that cross is new to us. We will see how it goes.
If we ever have a mare that has breeding, foaling or milking problems, we sell her and any daughters. Breeding and foal raising integrity is like everything else -- it is largely genetic as well as management. Since our management program has worked so well, we cull horses that give breeding and management problems. To me, this is one of the biggest differences between a serious breeder and a so-called 'back-yard breeder'.
Since our management program has worked so well, we cull horses that give breeding and management problems. To me, this is one of the biggest differences between a serious breeder and a so-called 'back-yard breeder'.
Yes, it is such common practice in livestock, I worked at a dairy for a while, a maiden heifer was forgiven needing help to birth, but 2nd time around and need assistance again, down the road with you. Any attitude in the parlour, even if you are a big milker, off you go, bad feet, anything that causes issues, of to the market.
What we ended up with was an easy keep herd, that still out milked most in the area, and costs were kept lower because of minimal vet call outs.
People are more reluctant to pull horses from a breeding program because of issues, it's nice to read of a program like Cheries. I agree that the more 'hot house flower' the horses become, the more likely you are to run into problems. Not saying that is the case here, but just in general.
Looking at this foal and the filly she lost before, it looks like none of this was genetic in origin. This foal passed due to aspiration of meconium, something that could probably happen to any foal. Her filly died due to a pasture accident.
So, while she's got awful luck as a mother (considering Ziconic and Cozmic One haven't really proven themselves much), genetics might not play as big a hand in this particular issue.
Even when they are not inbred close, the entire breed is a small gene pool with no out-cross or hybrid vigor coming in for more than 100 years. When you have a large purse structure whether it is for racing or cutting or whatever event or venue, people keep breeding the best or the fastest to the best or the fastest. Soon, they have hit a point where any out-cross blood would dilute the ability or speed -- so it is never done.
Additionally, when you breed for one specific trait, animals are not culled for non-related problems associated with breeding or foaling or milking or far too often, soundness of feet and legs. So these highly bred horses become very fragile and very prone to problems not seen in feral populations or seen in horses bred for a job where they have to survive with little help.
Ranch horses have to be survivors. They are not coddled or pampered. It is back to 'survival of the fittest'. This is why ranch raised horses are so valued for saddle horses, roping horses and 'using horses'. It is one of the reasons we almost never have a sick horse or a case of colic. Part is management but a big part is the horses themselves. Race horses just are not bred to be that hardy.
I stood 2 Stakes Winning TB stallions back in the late 70s. Both were KY bred and one was a Classic winner (the first Classic winner to ever stand in Colorado) and the other set a North American Track Record. We bred a lot of TB mares. We used to say that they came in "just looking for a place to die."
The colt died from meconium staining and the filly had another weanling crash into her that broke her back. This mare has not had a single issue foaling or conceiving.
I'm sorry, but I don't think this is the appropriate thread for this conversation, when it was not the mare's "fault" that either foal died. Since when was meconium staining genetic?
@Mulefeather, Ziconic in particular has a long way to go before we can say he's a dud. He had a really nice debut, and his second race seems to dial back to a training issue. And remember while he keeps being called a "late bloomer", he was not chronologically three until a few days after his second race.
"To me, this is one of the biggest differences between a serious breeder and a so-called 'back-yard breeder'."
Come on. You're almost implying that a posh stud farm in Kentucky that has horses like Zenyatta, Tonalist, and Honor Code, who are worth about a zillion dollars, isn't a 'serious breeder.'
I do agree with most of what Cherie has said. When I worked/bred Morgans, both the 'working' type and the 'show' type I heard horror stories from people both on forums and in person.
Morgans are known for metabolic disorders and a susceptibility to founder later in life. Or, if they're the show type, they're known for this AND having no brains.
So when I got on forums and had in depth discussions with people about Morgans I was surprised to find out that it was rare that none of our breeding lines had ever had this issues (or had them to such a low occurrence rate). So I went back through our lines and who bred to who and found that in our home line horses were bred on three things:
1) Conformation
2) Functionality
3) Temperament.
The line breeding was kept at a low level and even in our 'show' type Morgans (park horses) we have both brains and correct conformation with a horse that is functional to do both its job and any other you throw at him.
I think that sometimes a lot of big name breeders get involved in breeding for conformation or for some quality (such as speed, endurance, knee action) that they forget to breed for functionality which can cause problems in foals. I also think that sometimes 'less is more'. I had a mare that the owners said would never carry to term. She always aborted halfway through or had a still born foal. The owners took her to multiple high ranking vets and none had been successful. So we took her, bred her and threw her out in a pasture 24/7. She never miscarried so we brought her up to foal her out. We didn't step in to 'help' we just let her be and come morning she had a lively filly. I think it really helped her to be moving 24/7 instead of having 'downtime' in a stall.
That being said, it's not the topic of the thread so I'll leave it just as food for thought. This was NOT the Moss's fault. This is not 'bad or reckless breeding. This was a freak accident again. While it was rare when I bred, I would have foals that were perfectly healthy and then just drop over dead.
I see no reason why they shouldn't breed her again, it's not like its a genetic condition that she's having. My condolences to them, it's never easy to lose a foal.
Zen and RA have had horrible luck in the breeding shed with RA probably never carrying another foal. Zenyatta may be a dud in the shed, it's really too early to say anything about the two on the track now, Zen was a late bloomer and so are her foals. Few people believe me, but few race mares become amazing broodmares, if you are lucky, you get a few nice foals and hope the 2nd generation carry on her material to greatness. Zen has amazing owners, she will have a few more foals irregardless of how well they do on the track. They will all be loved and continue on the proud tradition of the Moss's.
Zen will be fine, she will be bred back, probably to War Front, and try again next year. That's breeding for you, it's not for the faint of heart.
The hope, it seems, is for another War Front filly. Or just a filly in general. V's female line has not had any really nice males (although Long Island Sound, by War Front and out of Z's half sister Treasure Trail might be changing things), but they're outstanding producers of fillies.
I'm sure they'd love another filly that looked like Z Princess. Posted via Mobile Device
Good news- saw this morning my wish came true. Zenyatta was sent to Medaglia d' Oro. Can you imagine a horse with the speed of Rachel and Songbird with Zenyatta's closing power. Wow.
I'm not over the moon with the choice, but I'm hoping all goes well! Fingers crossed for a filly.
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