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Clinton V.S. Pat

29K views 220 replies 31 participants last post by  tinyliny 
#1 ·
Is it just me, or did Clinton Anderdon rip the "Carrot stick idea from Pat Perellie?.. It looks like a carrot stick that he painted blue, lol.. Who was using that "whip" Idea first?
 
#8 ·
So are every other lunge whip from a short crop to a buggy whip. That is all the Carrot stick or stick and string or what ever you wish to call them is.

It would be like saying who invented a bit or reins? Some variation these things have been around about as long as there have been horses.
 
#9 ·
carrot stick is just fancy words for whip. Theyve done a few things like making it "fiberglass" or "making the string come off" so they can call it what they want. Could use a strong stick and drill a hole in the end for a string and have the same thing without paying. However if i had to choose between Pat and Clinton id choose Clinton ANY day.

IMHO i think Pat is full of it.
 
#13 ·
Lol, I knew I liked you!.. I think he is full of..Horse Apples also.. He never uses his whip.. I watched a Clinton viddie for an aggressive horse, and he actually used the whip.. Not to promote horse abuse, but sometimes you got to let them know that what they did was dead wrong, and I think Clinton establishes that.. Plus, his accent RULES!!
 
#21 ·
Clinton was a student of PNH, graduated Level 3, I've heard, before striking out on his own. So, he learned to use the cs under PNH.

From what I've read online, Pat was inspired to come up with the fiberglass stick while riding a certain horse bridleless in a public demo. I have no reason to doubt this story.

Regarding his mentors: I'm sure that neither Dorrance brother innovated the stick, nor used any kind of stick as the usual modus operandi, as Pat does (in Bill's book, True Horsemanship Through Feel, there's one case where he suggests using a stick, but he says to just find one in the woods!) Leslie Desmond, Bill's protege who's carrying his torch, also doesn't use any kind of stick. Pat's other mentors, Ray Hunt & Troy Henry, I also believe didn't normally use any kind of stick. So, I've concluded from these facts that Pat is the cs innovator & those who use fiberglass sticks with removable strings are imitators. Which is fine with me, because I think the cs a really useful tool for many aspects of hms.

The difference between a whip & a cs: the cs is used in both a friendly manner (to stroke the horse, keeping handler at a safe distance if needed) & in a directing manner (contact with horse & "driving", not contacting his body).

The handler should always regard the cs as an extension of his arm, because that's really what it should be (not a whipping tool, which sends a different feel to the horse).

Hope that helps!
 
#22 ·
Clinton was a student of PNH, graduated Level 3, I've heard, before striking out on his own. So, he learned to use the cs under PNH.
That is not where Clinton worked when he first came over. He studied under several top reining trainers.


From what I've read online, Pat was inspired to come up with the fiberglass stick while riding a certain horse bridleless in a public demo. I have no reason to doubt this story.

Ya b/c he has little use of his body when it comes to cueing a horse. He uses the stick to get the horse to change direction.

Regarding his mentors: I'm sure that neither Dorrance brother innovated the stick, nor used any kind of stick as the usual modus operandi, as Pat does (in Bill's book, True Horsemanship Through Feel, there's one case where he suggests using a stick, but he says to just find one in the woods!) Leslie Desmond, Bill's protege who's carrying his torch, also doesn't use any kind of stick. Pat's other mentors, Ray Hunt & Troy Henry, I also believe didn't normally use any kind of stick. So, I've concluded from these facts that Pat is the cs innovator & those who use fiberglass sticks with removable strings are imitators. Which is fine with me, because I think the cs a really useful tool for many aspects of hms.

The difference between a whip & a cs: the cs is used in both a friendly manner (to stroke the horse, keeping handler at a safe distance if needed) & in a directing manner (contact with horse & "driving", not contacting his body).

The handler should always regard the cs as an extension of his arm, because that's really what it should be (not a whipping tool, which sends a different feel to the horse).

Hope that helps!
Again the CS is nothing more then a lunge whipl. Although I do like the fact that the stick part is stiffer then a normal lunge whip. But past that there is very little differance and it works better in some areas and not as well in others.
 
#24 ·
So just B/C CA uses a stick that is must be a CS and he must have learnd it from PP? Really? You might want to think about that for a min. As PP and CA are not the only trainers who use a stick with a sting to work horses.
 
#31 · (Edited)
..It's ORANGE!! lol. We have a shortened/broken Lunge whip, I use it to mostly beat my bf with. :) lol.. oh, It works good with the horses too, lol..Not to beat them.. Let me clear that up, before someone that thinks I'm a Rick Gore Minion, starts makes up another one, lol. To lunge them with.
 
#28 ·
Take a look at Stacy Westfall stick and string. She has been using that for years. I know she has never worked with either. I know she knows them but she was never a student of either. They all use them. No one person invented it. It is a progression of what works.
 
#32 ·
I've tried using a lunge whip, to "whippy". The advantage of the carrot stick is that it is stiff. It allows the use of steady pressure on the horse which is not possible with a flexible stick.
I have also found by testing on my wife (just kidding, my hand actually :) ) that used with the same force a flexible whip causes much more pain than I can achieve with a carrot stick. I assume that CAs stick has similar characteristics as he probably got the idea when he was training under the Parelli system. I'd just choose the cheapest.
Incidentally I have seen cheap copies of the carrot stick by other manufacturers and considered buying them, but they were just to flexible.
 
#61 ·
Believe it or not, that is why I prefer to use a dressage whip or a buggy whip when lunging. IF, and I say IF I need a hrose to move off or away from me NOW! then I don't feel that the carrot stick has the umph, nor can I manipulate it with the speed I need. And due to it's weight and clumsiness, if I am working up close to a horse, having them circle me real close, and I need to get a shoulder off me pronto, I can't get the darn carrot stick to do much at close quarters.

A dressage whip just has to be vibrated in the air real quick and the hrose will move away immediately. I rarely ever actually hit a horse. mostly either vibrate to make a noise, or just touch them lightly with the soft tip.
I see folks with carrot sticks swinging and swinging and swinging the rope, and too many times the horse makes no change. So, the biggesdt they can get with the carrot stick gets no response, so the hrose ends up needing MORE.

However, I have seen Pat himself (in video) working with a horse at liberty with a carrot stick and it was a joy to watch.
 
#35 ·
Truthfully, if I was going to buy anyone's "stick and string" thing, it would be Dennis Reis's. At least his has that handy little hook at one end.
Reis Ranch Horse Flag

As for who invented the Carrot Stick in particular, that would be PP, but it's really nothing more than his own take and some speshul name he slapped on something that has been used for millennia in the horse-handling arena.
 
#41 ·
...
As for who invented the Carrot Stick in particular, that would be PP, but it's really nothing more than his own take and some speshul name he slapped on something that has been used for millennia in the horse-handling arena.
This is where I'm not filled in on the facts: have others, B.P. (before Pat, just a li'l joke) used their whips as an extension of the arm, with which to stroke the horse as well as enforce directions?

Or has the whip always been all stick & no carrot, as it were, B.P.? When I was a kid, the longe whip or crop were just whips, which the horses would've been shocked to find us stroking them with! Au contraire, the horses were always leery & overly aware that one had a crop. Yet that was considered normal horsemanship. I find the cs concept much better for the horse.
 
#37 ·
My point is that CA first come over he worked under top reining trainer then went back to AUS. Not sure I have ever seen any thing that states he ever worked under PP.

My point is that if you think that every trainer who uses a stick and string worked under PP you are wrong. Stacy has been using a stick and string for years and she has never worked under PP or done any of his programs. She is much better then he would ever hope to be.
 
#38 ·
My point is that CA first come over he worked under top reining trainer then went back to AUS. Not sure I have ever seen any thing that states he ever worked under PP. You probably can find out online. You can even ask Clinton.

My point is that if you think that every trainer who uses a stick and string worked under PP you are wrong. Not to worry, I've not made that assumption.:wink: Why are you even pointing it out to me? Stacy has been using a stick and string for years and she has never worked under PP or done any of his programs. She is much better then he would ever hope to be.
Again, it's that we were discussing Clinton's history with the stick, relative to Pat's! How lousy or good Pat is at cueing, how much better Stacy is than Pat, the fact that you never heard that Clinton studied under PNH etc, obfuscate OP's simple question, which asked for the facts, not opinions.
 
#43 ·
That is nothing new. People have been using all types of things from lunge whips to ropes to get horses use to all types of things over the years. Use of the lunge whip or Rope to get a horse use to you touching his legs and feet have been going on again as long as there have been horses and ropes.
 
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#48 ·
Teaching a horse to lay down has many applications. So there are many points to it. Just depends on what you want out of your horse.
 
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#51 ·
It was ages ago that I read online that Clinton graduated Level 3 of PNH; it might've even been on a horse forum. I don't care to call them & ask, & it's highly plausible that Clinton'd leave his time spent in PNH out of his bio (if that's where you got the above), so we're left with whoever wants to, to call him & ask. (Although there exists the possibility of his denying it, competitiveness could prompt this. If he denies it, one could call PNH & see if they seem to be upfront about it.)

I don't see, however, why the possibility of Clinton's having studied PNH is met with such incredulity, here. If I said he studied under Jane Savoie, ok. lol!
 
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