Clinton V.S. Pat

Carrot stick and string $45.95
12 foot line with snap $34.76
22 foot line with snap $43.46
Rope halter $17.36

Total $141 or around £88 UK pounds

One months livery £400.

The kit is not actually that expensive compared to my other costs in owning and caring for a horse. I reckon the total cost for me is around £6000 / $9700 per year per horse.

I have tried buying kit from other suppliers, but can honestly say that it has never been as good as genuine kit. I have had horses stand on carrot sticks with shoes on and barely scratch it.

What I am trying to say is that I can hardly believe that there is an entire thread complaining how expensive the kit is given you only need to buy it once and bearing in mind how much horses actually cost to own if you are honest with yourself and add in all the expenses you incur.

Put another way, if I manage to play with my horse for 1 hour a day ( I don't include all the stable management time, but the actual riding/play time) then that hour costs £20. Averaging 1 hour a day all year round whilst working full time, having the occasional holiday, horse sickness etc etc is actually quite difficult to achieve so I am being generous here.

By buying good quality, proven kit, I am not going to loose any time with my horse due to broken kit. Each hour lost costs me around £20

Thus the entire kit to get started is equivalent to around 4 hours play. The stick, about 90 minutes !!

I know these figures might shock some, but keeping a horse in part livery in the UK just outside London is expensive. And with both me and my wife in work part livery is actually the only option for us if we want to own horses at all.

I'm just trying to imagine CA advertising his "DownUnder Australian Hog Stick", or Pat marketing a "Natural Horsemanship Pig Stick"...not sure the average suburban woman, new to horses and a bit intimidated by them, wants to go "play" with their horse & "Hog Stick"!

Here is a 30" pig stick by Weaver ($8):

Pig Stick Show Stick Weaver Leather (Showing Grooming - Show Pig - Show Sticks Bats)

And here is a Deluxe Pig Whip w/ Chrome Tip ($12):

Deluxe Pig Whip w/ Chrome Tip Weaver Leather (Showing Grooming - Show Pig - Show Sticks Bats)

Now if they would just market them with an Australian accent by a guy with a big mustache...

No lunge whip
$9.99 lungle line used befor the first 4 or 5 rides.
$4.99 halter used with lunge line befor the first 4-5 rides.

Add in GOOD TRAINING and you get this.



It is not about what you put on the horse it is about what you put into the horse in the form of training. I would NEVER let PP swing a leg over one of my horses. I have watched him ride. My horses would not tolerate him at all.

And where do you learn to be a good enough trainer to do the good training required ? Ah yes, from someone who trains people and horses.
Pat never says you can't get good results from using whatever equipment you like, but it is just easier if you have good equipment. And if you are starting out, like I am, I don't need to prove how brilliant I am at training by using minimalist equipment, I need all the help I can get.

An unarmed man lives in a civilisation
An armed man lives in a ....

An unarmed man HOPES he lives in a civilization.
An armed man carries civilization with him.

Not sure, tho, how that impacts Parelli or Anderson.

However, someone starting out shouldn't be training horses. I write that fully understanding that I unknowingly bought one with minimal training, and have spent 4+ years trying to get out of that hole. However, in my defense, I did hire a trainer, because I wasn't up to it and no book or DVD would get me up to speed.

Ideally, you start with a well trained horse and learn to ride. You don't do that in months, but years.

Then you start do minimal training - maybe teaching a young horse that is broken but unbalanced to balance better. And you take on more and more teaching opportunities, until you know enough to try training your first horse. Then you do that, WITH HELP. Even so, it probably won't be pretty.

Then you work your way up in experience and the level of skill needed.

That doesn't mean that a DVD or book can't give you ideas, provided you know your limitations. If you don't know your limitations, or if many students apparently don't, then the DVDs need to address that issue.

I bought some DVDs from Larry Trocha on both some basics and on good stops. Mia is pretty well behaved, but when she gets wound up and galloping with another horse, she doesn't stop for squat. And after watching just part of the DVD, I can see how I've screwed up. I was putting so much emphasis on getting her used to going out on the trail that I let her get sloppy about stops. Yes, she stops...but not as cleanly and promptly and completely as she could. And if I understand Larry Trocha's point, a horse that doesn't stop perfectly at a walk or trot isn't going to stop for squat when they are wound up and galloping.

After 5 years with horses, mostly with Mia, that is about the most advanced training I'm willing to undertake - to try to get a better stop from her at all times. For all I know, CA or Parelli might have DVDs that would have also given me some good ideas. But I've got 5 years behind me now, and have worked with trainers watching me, and I'm only going to try something very simple now. And if I run into problems, I won't hesitate to ask for help - from a breathing person watching what we're doing.

Horses are neat creatures. They deserve good training, from someone with the background to give it. IMHO.

^^

I agree, it doesn't impact on this debate. Just felt nrhareiners signature needed a reply. I've mentioned it once, nrh mentions it on every post.

Living in a civilisation I can honestly say I have never seen a gun being carried for personal protection or offensive use. And I am PROUD to be a subject of Queen Elizabeth II.

Living in uncivilized southern Arizona, where the cops will be there within 30 minutes...I often carry a gun. And when I do, civilization travels with me. Although if I'm doing it right, you could walk past me and still say, "say I have never seen a gun being carried for personal protection or offensive use". If I'm carrying a gun openly, it means I'm out hiking or out shooting.

As a subject of Queen Elizabeth, you HOPE you live in a civilized spot, because a bad guy with a baseball bat or a couple of guys with knives can make your life very uncivilized very fast. One of my co-workers in Oxford in 1990 had his face smashed by a guy he never saw...just some drunk who didn't like Americans and smashed a beer mug into his head. Severe concussion, then a fractured jaw from a follow-up blow - all from someone he had never met! Even in civilized Oxford England, there are uncivilized people walking around. But if a couple of guys break in my home, they will soon discover the rule of law still applies.

Nrhareiner's signature goes beyond that. It is based on colonial times, and what happened when the King's soldiers wanted to seize the weapons of the subjects living in America...who didn't remain subjects much longer. It reflects the traditional American resentment of intrusive government. It is NOT anti-English, however. Prior to 1900, there were no gun control laws in England, which is why Dr Watson was free to carry his revolver with him...

Cultural explanation given, back to topic!

This has been a useful exchange. I now understand the position some folks on this forum take on life. Living in the UK we are somewhat sheltered from this attitude and it is interesting to hear.

Those lines in my Sig have been there for years now. The last 2 go hand and hand. With out the first you will not have the second for long. This is why our founding fathers set up the bill of rights and the constitution the way they did.