Clinton V.S. Pat

Like I said an interesting exchange. When people are evaluating opinions given on this sort of subject it is useful for them to know a bit about the personality of the person giving the opinion.

I am probably what would be considered a bleeding heart liberal in parts of the USA, but am actually fairly right wing by UK standards.
This set of personal beliefs probably influences why I like some horse trainers and not others. I can't help it, it is in my cultural upbringing. Maybe that is why I like the approach of Pat Parelli, but whilst I acknowledge her great achievements did not click so well with Stacey Westfalls approach (I watch her World Champ ride on YouTube for inspiration often). I am NOT demeaning her training style at all, it is just that for my personal psyche it does not work as well.
When people are evaluating what program to follow this is an important consideration. They are going to be taking part and listening to many hours of instruction in that program and if it jars against their personal belief set it will hinder the learning process.
Also I accept that Pat is not the best rider in the world, but then I doubt that Tiger Woods coach is the best golfer in the world. If he was he would supplant Tiger Woods ! It is not necessary to seek out the best rider, but the trainer from whom you can personally gain the most benefit.
I fly gliders at an international level but my sports psychologist trainer has never sat in a glider, let alone flown one. Yet I still trust her to be part of my training team and have learnt many things of use from her.

While I agree and understand what you are saying. PP is not only a bad rider but a bad trainer. Look at the horses he rides every day you would think those would be some very well trained horses. They are not.

While you can use people who are not doing what you are doing like your sports psychologist may never have flown a plane of any kind however in her chosen area I am getting she is one of the best. She did not learn from a bad trainer or a bad teacher. She picked up what she knows from what I would hope to be the best. As she is not teaching you how to fly but how to handle the presure that comes with flying at that level. I have over the years worked with people who are at the top of what they do and a lot of the people around them can not even come close to what they do but they are there for a reason. Not to help improve on what the person is doing but to keep their mind spirit and soal in the game.

This is where I think PP can help some poeple. Do not use him as a trainer or how to train your horse but you can use him for his mind set on some things. I personally do not find him usuful in anyway but I can see how some could. Take that from him and use others that have proven themselves to be good trainers and use that info for training.

That is your opinion. But if you read Padronas' post on page 2 of "your opinion on Parelli" she has a different opinion. From her description of her experience with horses I would say that her opinion is likely to be equally valid.
I guess she has a different personality to yours and for her Parelli works.

I have little doubt that it works for some poeple and some horses. I know one person who did ok with PP. Did not get killed and her horse is ridable. However took over 4 years to get what I would consider a green broke horse. Others I have seen and been around are not even what I would consider green broke. They are pussy and dangours horses. Will not have one here on my property. Sent one home a few years ago in to be bred.

I also think that depending on the person PP works better for some then others. The ones I find that PP system works better for are those who would do well with horses regarldess of useing PP system.

Here is a clip of PP on Majic. A horse he has been riding and training for quite some time.

Notice once he looses the big bouncy ball which I will not comment on.

Look when he starts to show how well he can do a reining maneuver.

Wathch his seat his body his head and more of all watch his hands. Then look at what he is doing affects the horse and not in a good way.


Now go back and look at some of the trainers I posted earlier doing the same maneuver. See the differance?

I have said before that I agree that Pat is not a top rider. As far as I am aware Majic was not trained to be a top reining horse. Her primary task was colt starting and inspirational shows. Therefore you are not comparing like with like. The video you show was of Pat just having a bit of fun with the audience. He does not profess to be a reining trainer. In fact he endorses a video called "Let It Rein" Let It Rein DVD by Craig Johnson Parelli Natural Horsemanship if folks want to get into reining (which I would like to have a play at by the way. Just not much of it in my area of the UK).
This is just an example of how Pat says his program is just foundation training which James reckoned folks should finish in around 2 years, for them and their horses, and then go an find a specialist for their sport. They work very closely with Walter Zettl for dressage as well. In fact Linda was brave enough to have a live lesson with Walter in front of an audience of around 6000 people a few years ago in Birmingham UK. And he did not take any prisoners !!

Reading Craigs c.v it seems (though I know nothing about it) that he is a pretty good reining horsemen. I doubt that he would or needs to associate himself with Parelli, but chooses to do so.

I agree with what Pegasus says : I'm not at all a western rider, and don't want to be one.
We have in France à great classical riding tradition, and our horses and fitted for that équitation.

So I absolutly don't care about western riding from PP.

But, what I can improve with PP methode is the way you bring your horse into confidence, willing to do things, lightness in riding response... And then you chose what to do with your horse.
And in France it is mostly jumping, dressage, driving, trial... Not even 1% rider choose western riding.

Would you agree with me to say that P. Parelli don't ride his horses with a "Traditional Spade"? You surely can't do what you see him do with a spade.
He use a briddle bit more like european dressage bit, whitch are made to be used with a contact with the horse's mouth, so the horse mouve his jaw because that cause the horse's back to be relax.
I certainly would not call that "affect" the horse.

Maybe, I don't know, connecting european and western horsemanship is a crime! It would be a crime in France to use a "traditional spade", even for western horsemanship.

But I just wonder, about the two first videos you showed, how is the bit INSIDE the mouth.

You need to educate yourself before you go running your mouth about a training style you obviously know nothing about.

The spade bit is not a torture device used to beat a horse into submission. It is about using signals rather than leverage for communication. This style of horsemanship is about preservation of the mouth, it is considered sacred! We also believe in a soft jaw. It is the mechanics of the bit that allows for softness and relaxation.

Old-School Horse Training Approach

I suggest you read through the whole thread I linked above. It will give you a better understanding.

I just read that thread yesterday and I've been quite traumatised by it...

In France, you're sure end up in Tribunal Court and have your horses taken away from you if you use such a technic... No joke.

Then obviously you do not understand it and how it works. I am curious as to what part "traumatized" you? Maybe I can help you understand.