Clinton V.S. Pat - Page 16 - The Horse Forum

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post #151 of 221 Old 01-17-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by nrhareiner View Post

As a breeder I have never heard the term bottle breed? Are you trying to say that the horse was bottle fed and human raised vs raised in a herd of horses?
I'm speaking of a horse being orphan at birth, and bottle feed (I suppose that's the correct word ) since the youngest by human with no other horse around.

Faites de lui un compagnon, pas un esclave.
Nuno Oliveira.
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post #152 of 221 Old 01-17-2013, 11:59 AM
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I'm speaking of a horse being orphan at birth, and bottle feed (I suppose that's the correct word ) since the youngest by human with no other horse around.
Ok thaght that was what you where trying to say. Yes if not done correcty that can be a problem. However can be fixed with little problem by someone knowing what they are doing. These problems are more human related then horse related.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #153 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 12:49 AM
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Just to say : Pat Parelli has maid part of his ride what we do in Europe. Maybe you find it out of purpose, I can't give you an advice about that. But that's certainly the reason why, in Europe, it's the only one we know about.
If that was true, I'd be seriously crying.

To my eyes the problem (aside from the "pulling a spin" thing) with Pat's riding on the video after the big ball section is that his hands don't mean anything. His contact is not constant nor is it informative for the horse. The horse takes a step, it gets a pull on the bit. The horse stands, and there's that jerk again. The pressure and release come and go without the horse responding to anything -- or having time to do it. His horse gets confused, tries to raise its nose out of the way and hollows out. This all equals to bad hands.

Compare this to the WE speed test video. The rider held his hand position and rein length through the video except when signalling. The life in the rein came mostly when the horse tucked his nose further back. And the horse moved in a very collected manner, back-to-front.

You can ride Western with a short rein and contact but the jerking motion is not ok. Nor is it in any type of European riding that is acceptable. Hollow backs seem to be the norm in current Dressage, but that doesn't make it okay either. If you think it is and ride that way, your horse should be taken away from you ASAP. Chances are it will, due to injury.

When I watched that PP video, my first thought was "even I ride better". And I'm not all that good. Heck, it took me 11 years of Western to realize what Reining is actually about. And before you count me as a Westerner: I started out in English style, then hopped over to German style at which point I found Western and Spanish styles. That all garnished with some classical masters (Carde anyone?) and Centered Riding.
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post #154 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 04:48 AM
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I think the truth is we can argue on this thread until we are blue in the face, and make no progress. The "opponent" sides come form totally different cultures, and I am not just talking about their attitude to horses. I personally find it difficult to even understand the attitude of folks who carry concealed weapons, but then I don't live in their environment. If I did I may well have a different opinion. The environment where that attitude is needed would probably inform my attitude to all sorts of subjects.

I live in the gentle Shires of the UK. The only guns are the ones licensed for the occasional pheasant shoot and are limited to shotguns. You would never see a gun carried in public on the streets. Even the local police don't have any weapon beyond a truncheon. The most dangerous animal is a Muntjac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . This is bound to give me a different outlook on life, and what I want from my horses compared with someone who lives in an area where all the criminals carry guns and the wildlife want to eat me.

These differences are not right or wrong, good or bad, they just are.

It is now up to the OP to sift through all these posts, form an opinion as to where they stand at a cultural level and make a choice. There is enough information on here now for them to form a pretty good idea as to the believe systems of all the participants in the debate . And bearing this in mind they should be able to look at themselves and decide where they fit in.
I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction". But the trainer you are going to learn most from is the one that you most enjoy listening to, and can follow for a long period of time. And for me personally I like Pats philosophy on life and the way he handles horses. For others it will just grate.
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post #155 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Pegasus1 View Post
I think the truth is we can argue on this thread until we are blue in the face, and make no progress. The "opponent" sides come form totally different cultures, and I am not just talking about their attitude to horses. I personally find it difficult to even understand the attitude of folks who carry concealed weapons, but then I don't live in their environment. If I did I may well have a different opinion. The environment where that attitude is needed would probably inform my attitude to all sorts of subjects.
Not sure how this pertains to the subject at hand. It is my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO CARRY SO I DO. I do not carry b/c I fear anything.

I live in the gentle Shires of the UK. The only guns are the ones licensed for the occasional pheasant shoot and are limited to shotguns.
You do know that a shotgun can do more damage then just about any other gun around. The Winchester 1897 was one of the most feared guns by the Germans in WWI. Known as the Trenchgun.

You would never see a gun carried in public on the streets. Even the local police don't have any weapon beyond a truncheon. The most dangerous animal is a Muntjac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . This is bound to give me a different outlook on life, and what I want from my horses compared with someone who lives in an area where all the criminals carry guns and the wildlife want to eat me.

I too live in an area with a low crime rate. Why? Probably b/c everyone around here has a gun and knows how to use it.

These differences are not right or wrong, good or bad, they just are.
This is true even in the US. I have a lot of freinds who do not carry or even own a gun Many others who do.

It is now up to the OP to sift through all these posts, form an opinion as to where they stand at a cultural level and make a choice.
It has nothing to do with Cultur. It has to do with good training. PP is NOT A GOOD TRAINER. What he is is a good marketer.

There is enough information on here now for them to form a pretty good idea as to the believe systems of all the participants in the debate . And bearing this in mind they should be able to look at themselves and decide where they fit in.
I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction". But the trainer you are going to learn most from is the one that you most enjoy listening to, and can follow for a long period of time. And for me personally I like Pats philosophy on life and the way he handles horses. For others it will just grate.
You seem to think that having a CCW is some how translated into crulity and if I do not follow the almighty PP that I am so how curle to my horses.

AGIAN I ASK. When you show do you have to drop bit to the judges? Does the judge walk all around your horse and look at every inch of them? I really want to know. In YOUR country does anyone do this? I really want to know.
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-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #156 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nrhareiner View Post

AGIAN I ASK. When you show do you have to drop bit to the judges? Does the judge walk all around your horse and look at every inch of them? I really want to know. In YOUR country does anyone do this? I really want to know.
I won't speak for Pegasus because I don't know how it is in England, but in France, the answer is YES!
They look BEFORE and won't let you in if you tacks are too rude or out of the discipline rule.
They look AFTER too.
And when you ride endurance, they will check you while competiting (halt with heart test and locomotions tests by a vet)

Faites de lui un compagnon, pas un esclave.
Nuno Oliveira.

Last edited by Dame Nuit; 01-18-2013 at 09:38 AM. Reason: orthographe
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post #157 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dame Nuit View Post
I won't speak for Pegasus because I don't know how it is in England, but in France, the answer is YES!
They look BEFORE and won't let you in if you tacks are too rude or out of the discipline rule.
They look AFTER too.
And when you ride endurance, they will check you while competiting (halt with heart test and locomotions tests by a vet)
That is great. WE have very set rules as to what can and can not be used and every horse us checked by the bit judge when we leave the arena. If there is so much as a scratch on the horse anywhere you are DQed. I lost over a $1000 one show b/c of a scratch on my mare. Was not even bleading and it took 3 judges about 10 min to find it and make a ruleing. Not sure why as I never did see it but Ok it is their call not mine. Anouther $600 at a reined cow horse show b/c of a scratch on her mouth. Again not bleading but it looked a bit raw. SO DOed and lost first place in 2 classes and a lot of money. Again Ok it is their call.

So no no one is being cruel to our horses. A horse who is sore or hurting does not perform very well. A horse who is scared of you or your aids is not going to perform very well. Heck look at the PP video. His horse is more worried about his hands and aids and it shows.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #158 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pegasus1 View Post
I think the truth is we can argue on this thread until we are blue in the face, and make no progress. The "opponent" sides come form totally different cultures, and I am not just talking about their attitude to horses. I personally find it difficult to even understand the attitude of folks who carry concealed weapons, but then I don't live in their environment. If I did I may well have a different opinion. The environment where that attitude is needed would probably inform my attitude to all sorts of subjects.

I live in the gentle Shires of the UK. The only guns are the ones licensed for the occasional pheasant shoot and are limited to shotguns. You would never see a gun carried in public on the streets. Even the local police don't have any weapon beyond a truncheon. The most dangerous animal is a Muntjac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . This is bound to give me a different outlook on life, and what I want from my horses compared with someone who lives in an area where all the criminals carry guns and the wildlife want to eat me.

These differences are not right or wrong, good or bad, they just are.

It is now up to the OP to sift through all these posts, form an opinion as to where they stand at a cultural level and make a choice. There is enough information on here now for them to form a pretty good idea as to the believe systems of all the participants in the debate . And bearing this in mind they should be able to look at themselves and decide where they fit in.
I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction". But the trainer you are going to learn most from is the one that you most enjoy listening to, and can follow for a long period of time. And for me personally I like Pats philosophy on life and the way he handles horses. For others it will just grate.
I find it really odd that you assume our culture is the reason, or at least part, that we are not in love with Pat Parelli. You say, [I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction".], yet you still felt the need to lead off your post with a speel about cultural differences. That is pretty much like saying "Well bless your heart" as they do in the south.
I get the feeling that you think that us uncivilized westerners are still fighting savage indians, participating in gun fights in the street at high noon and "John Wayne reining" our horses around at a full gallop everywhere we go as if we are all living in a low budget spaghetti western movie.
But believe it or not, we gun toting citizens are no less civilized. (After all, I do know what fork to use at dinner)nor do we live in fear of our lives, we are simply prepared to protect it if the occasion arises.
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I DON'T LEAD 'EM AND FEED 'EM, I RIDE 'EM AND SLIDE 'EM.
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post #159 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by COWCHICK77 View Post
...(After all, I do know what fork to use at dinner)nor do we live in fear of our lives, we are simply prepared to protect it if the occasion arises.
Forks? What are those? THIS is all I need for gettin' me some grub...good for gettin' my horse's attention, too!



Good for pickin' my teeth, too.

"People can teach us the rules, but only horses can teach us the art of riding."

Last edited by bsms; 01-18-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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post #160 of 221 Old 01-18-2013, 12:19 PM
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Thanks for the reply nrhareiner. I was just quietly trying to point out that different cultural backgrounds will produce different like and dislikes in training styles. I think your reply reinforces my point.
The checks you have to go through to get a shotgun in the UK are so stringent you'd be amazed. Police visits to your house to see where you will store it, police background checks on you, references from reputable people as to your sanity. I probably see a gun around once a year in my area. Shot Gun Applications - Metropolitan Police Service .

Not sure why it being your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to carry a gun means you have to carry one. Does the constitution forbid not bearing arms ?
I actually have a right to graze my cattle (if I had any) on the local common, but I didn't go out and buy a cow to exercise that right.

I do not think not following PP means you are cruel and have never, nor would ever imply that. I have no knowledge of how you treat your horses, as you have none about how I do mine. There are many trainers to follow and I take notice of them all. Following or not following one is not an indicator of cruelty.

Yes British equestrianism has very strict ethical standards, but I am sad to say that at some minor shows they are not always adhered to as strictly as they should be. But then I hear the same happens occasionally in the US as well. It is up to ethical horsemen to complain vigorously to the judges if they see any wrongdoing going on.

And your comment that PP is not a good trainer is just an opinion. Other very experienced horsemen on this forum have said that they think he is a good trainer. You are entitled to your opinion, but then so are they.
As for the marketing, at least even you think he does some things well :) .
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