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Clinton V.S. Pat

This is a discussion on Clinton V.S. Pat within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        01-28-2013, 07:04 PM
      #191
    Yearling
    ^ I'm with you. I'd choose neither though. I think they are almost both on the same level.
         
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        01-28-2013, 07:29 PM
      #192
    Started
    I got caught up on reading this thread, took me little awhile. LOL.

    About the bits and the discussion on the spade bit, etc., a few pages back. Someone had mentioned they use those types of bits to achieve softness and relaxation; yet, you can achieve softness and relaxation with a snaffle too, so I am rather confused as to why the need for so much hardware in a horse's mouth. Softness and flexion at the poll are achieved from the hindquarters with the use of seat and legs, and not with the hands/bit.
         
        01-28-2013, 07:35 PM
      #193
    Showing
    The reason for that much "hardware" on a spade is for communication purposes. Once the horse learns to carry the bit properly and if they've been trained properly, then all the extras on the spade just make it easier for the horse to feel the cue from the reins...so that means less cue.

    Where you might have to apply 8 ounces of contact in a snaffle, you can pick the slack out of a rein in a spade and get a better response. Not because it hurts, but because they can feel the nuances of what you're asking for.

    Oh, and the spade isn't used to "achieve" softness and relaxation. The horse learns that while in the snaffle and bosal stages. If a horse in a spade still needs to learn softness and relaxation, then they aren't anywhere ready for the spade and that's a failure on the trainer's part.
         
        01-28-2013, 07:38 PM
      #194
    Yearling
    Smrobs has got it. The level of response is amazing in a true bridle horse. My finished horses move and give their whole body to the slight lift of a rein. They are a pre signal bit. Even the lightest signals on the reins, seat and legs will be felt by the horse. Snaffles work off the bars of the mouth, that's it. A true bridle horse has nothing to do with hardware, but of a long, special process of getting a horse that light. I started a thread on bridle horses, titled "Old School Horse Training Approach" if you would like to get a little better understanding.
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        01-28-2013, 07:40 PM
      #195
    Yearling
    Here's the link: Old-School Horse Training Approach
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        01-28-2013, 07:54 PM
      #196
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Remali    
    I got caught up on reading this thread, took me little awhile. LOL.

    About the bits and the discussion on the spade bit, etc., a few pages back. Someone had mentioned they use those types of bits to achieve softness and relaxation; yet, you can achieve softness and relaxation with a snaffle too, so I am rather confused as to why the need for so much hardware in a horse's mouth. Softness and flexion at the poll are achieved from the hindquarters with the use of seat and legs, and not with the hands/bit.

    Thank you smrobs and Wanstrom.

    I did not say that the bits themselves is what creates a soft mouth or a relaxed jaw but rather this style of training is very much about the preservation of the mouth and softness. In order to have softness and the jaw relaxed the body behind has to be soft and with that comes proper training. The horse must have a soft mouth and relaxed jaw in order to feel the signals well. There is absolutely no advantage to using a spade bit improperly by pulling on it like Dame nutwit was insinuating.
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        01-28-2013, 07:57 PM
      #197
    Foal
    Guys stop fighting is it giving you anything are you gaining anything rom it?
         
        01-28-2013, 07:59 PM
      #198
    Showing
    Hmm, now that certain members (those who were making wild generalizations and bashing other members) have left the thread, I see no fighting, just the continuation of an educated discussion/debate.
         
        01-28-2013, 08:35 PM
      #199
    Started
    OK. I see what you mean now about bits. I think it boils down to how a person rides/was taught, etc. I use my seat and legs mainly. But I do get where you are coming from. I rode my horses with a Dr Bristol snaffle (similar to a French link), as well as a low port curb (depending on if I was doing dressage or western pleasure), I never had to use more pressure with the snaffle. I do imagine it depends on how you train your horse too, mine were all trained to respond to leg and seat cues, not so much the bit. My horses were light as a feather in the bridle.
         
        01-28-2013, 08:51 PM
      #200
    Trained
    This may backfire, but let me jump in and give an explanation as someone who has never used a spade bit and never will...not too sure I'll ever graduate to a leveraged bit, and no way I'll ever be ready for a spade. But...

    See the bit below:



    The spade part is not gouging into the roof of the mouth. It is resting between the tongue and pallet. The reins are attached at the end of the levers, which amplify any movement of the reins.

    Given a bit like that, it is reasonable that the horse can feel and respond to vibrations on his tongue instead of pressure on the bars? If, of course, he had been gradually introduced and taught to listen to vibrations on his tongue.

    To me, that sounds reasonable. There is a lot of stuff resting on the tongue, and it makes sense that it would be very easy for the horse to feel it.

    The mistake is to assume, as I used to, that the idea was that you could use all that hardware to punish the horse for disobedience. If you are thinking that way, then spade bits are not for you - you generic, not any individual on this thread.

    If a bit is for communication, then all that stuff might be able to act as an amplifier in the mouth - but an amplifier based on having a large area of contact and with lots of things that vibrate rather than amplifying by putting extra pressure on the bars.

    If I'm wrong, I apologize to all. That is how one person who has never held a spade bit is trying to understand its use. Feel free to correct me so I can learn.

    If I'm right, it is arguably a gentler bit than what I'm currently using with Mia (Internet pic, this is NOT Mia nor how I use it either):



    Edit to add Mia...I'm currently using this on the little ring below the big ring. She seems relaxed so far:

    smrobs and BearPony like this.
         

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