Clinton V.S. Pat - Page 21 - The Horse Forum
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post #201 of 221 Old 01-28-2013, 09:58 PM
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You got a fair idea bsms, I think the old-timers that originally created the true spade bit, made it intimidating, and "scary" to the novice, uneducated rider. So they don't just pop it in their horse's mouth to look cool. But uf used correctly, on a horse that is trained to carry it. It is one of the mildest bits around. It doesn't really fit into the leverage category of bits. Leverage bits work off the curb strap, the spade is a category in itself. It works like no other bit in the transfer of signals, with vibrations, slight shifts and movement of the chains to many different points in the horses mouth. And the signals are never painful if used correctly.
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~Started young horses in Bosca te Ador, unto the two rein the old Spanish spade, brought them along with two hands that were gentle. Some fine reining horses as ever were made~
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post #202 of 221 Old 01-28-2013, 11:59 PM
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For two guys that go the calm, natural route, they sure do have a knack for starting controversy.
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post #203 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by nrhareiner View Post
Would not give you a plug nickle for either. However at least CA can ride and he is a proven trainer. Where PP can not ride and it not a proven trainer. PP would make a great used car salesman.
pp is the trainer of my horse and his method works really well and my horse doesn't kick bit or anything like that anymore so maybe he didn't work for you but it worked for me and PAT is older than CLINT so pat has more experience. think before you type please
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post #204 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 10:05 AM
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PAT is older than CLINT so pat has more experience
That is not a valid argument, sorry. Being older has nothing to do with presenting skills superior to those of younger professionals, and vice versa. Besides, more experience means nothing if there are skills lacking to use this experience.
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post #205 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Nokotaheaven View Post
How many people do you know can ride one horse and work with two other horsesat liberty at the SAME time hmm?
Pat Parelli ,OH - YouTube
Any ranch hand thats worked with cattle can do this, horses are herd animals and the stallion or alpha mare will 'round up' other horses with no training from humans at all - its instinct. The Mongolians were probably one of the earliest people to work horses like this - they probably watched their behaviour in the wild and realised they could harness the ability to their advantage
You'll see this sort of stuff in circus acts all over the world - they've been amazing the crowds with it for hundreds of years
PP is in an enclosed ring - Honza Blaha (see video below) has more horses and is out on open land
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ZmDkhqhW8
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post #206 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 10:35 AM
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All interesting comments, but take a hard look at both PP and CA and start asking why they do what they do. Look for hard facts based on scientific findings in horse behavior and physical limitations and you'll soon be able to sort the marketing from the training. For example, a classic CA comment "why did I do that ...... because I can!" What does that teach anyone? Another CA special ... "you can't bend and flex your horse too much". Oh yes you can .... I spent 5 days fixing a CA horse that would slam on the brakes and just stand there everytime you tried to bend his head. Any fool can bend a horses head around at the stand still. Getting the horse to give its head willingly at speed is some real training. Take a hard look at the early training ideas and ask how many of those behaviours will I have to "unteach" later. Like PP tell folks to push on the hip bone to get the horse to move its hind quarters over. I don't know about you but I have a heck of a time getting my heel that high while in the saddle! And how about if you drag your heal over the horses butt while mounting? Not when I want some past training to kick in and have the horse move his butt! And of course the teach the horse to back by pushing/tapping/cueing his chest ...... sorry my reins don't go to the chest. The biggest thing I don't see from either one is proper use of the riders legs and weight shift in the saddle. Anyway, to each their own, but take a look at the original clinictian, Monte Foreman, the hard research and slow motion films he pioneered and the training program he initiated and compare this to what is currently on the market.

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post #207 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
Any ranch hand thats worked with cattle can do this, horses are herd animals and the stallion or alpha mare will 'round up' other horses with no training from humans at all - its instinct. The Mongolians were probably one of the earliest people to work horses like this - they probably watched their behaviour in the wild and realised they could harness the ability to their advantage
You'll see this sort of stuff in circus acts all over the world - they've been amazing the crowds with it for hundreds of years
PP is in an enclosed ring - Honza Blaha (see video below) has more horses and is out on open land
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ZmDkhqhW8
Honza Blaha is a former Parelli student!

Honza bought his first own horse called Gaston. He studied Natural Horsemanship with Pat Parelli and after discovering the possibility of teaching horses without reins he challenged his teachers and went his own way.

Faites de lui un compagnon, pas un esclave.
Nuno Oliveira.

Last edited by Dame Nuit; 01-29-2013 at 10:45 AM.
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post #208 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 11:03 AM
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I think the point is that it isn't a big deal. If I rode my lead mare out of the corral, and left the gate open, I'm pretty sure all 3 horses would go on a trail ride together. Not because I'm some super trainer, or trained them at all. It is NORMAL for them to want to stay with the lead horse. Goodness knows, the geldings don't like being left behind!

Folks have done that sort of things in circuses for several hundred years.
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post #209 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by nikyplushbreyer View Post
pp is the trainer of my horse
So you had PP himself train your horse? Really? Would not let him swing a leg over one of mine if HE PAID ME.


and his method works really well and my horse doesn't kick bit or anything like that anymore
Even a blind squirrel can find a acorn ever once in a while.

so maybe he didn't work for you but it worked for me
Like I have stated before. I do not need PP to get a horse to work properly. He "Games" and "Program" is so flawed that it is not worth using. For every one horse/owner that PP may work for I can show you 10 that it does not and the horses are worse off then when they started.


and PAT is older than CLINT so pat has more experience. think before you type please

Like has been stated. Age plays no role when it comes to abilities.
If PP is better then CA then why since PP has tried to show NRHA does he not have more earnings then CA? I mean if they both show NRHA and PP is better then CA then it stands to reason that PP would have more earnings then CA right?
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post #210 of 221 Old 01-29-2013, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Dame Nuit View Post
Honza Blaha is a former Parelli student!

Honza bought his first own horse called Gaston. He studied Natural Horsemanship with Pat Parelli and after discovering the possibility of teaching horses without reins he challenged his teachers and went his own way.
Maybe tell me something I dont already know?
My point is that anyone can do this if they put their mind to it and want to do it
Blaha is now light years ahead of Parelli and makes him look like a rank amateur in comparison
You could join any circus and learn how to do this stuff with horses - none of it is new, this is an old clip from around the 50's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY9i--O0guk
All very cute but what real purpose does it serve in terms of everyday riding
Do these horses really enjoy doing this stuff?
The PP stuff is now being labelled as 'natural' and yet circus horse training was always under scrutiny of cruelty being involved
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