Clinton V.S. Pat

This is very true. If you have a herd of horses who do not want to move or come int. You do not have to catch them all or herd them all. Just go catch or herd the lead mare. All the others will follow.

This is not a new concept. It is as old as horses themselves.

As for as getting a horse to follow like PP was doing. Again not all that hard. He was not getting the horse to work together like what you see in Stacy video I posted. Watch the 2 again. When PP changes directions he forces the horse into the lead change as he uses his horse to force the other horse to go the other way. Now go and watch Stacys video. When she asks for a lead change both directions the horses do it the same time and change leads before they change direction which is how it should be. Where in PP video the horse changes direction before they change leads.

Well h3ll, I must be a super star if I can gather a few hundred cattle by myself and put them where I want them. Or gather almost a hundred head of saddle horses in the morning before its light.
This video demonstrates pretty basic stockmanship by using the balance point on the animal to direct what direction you want it to go, this no new feat of horsemanship.
I think this one of the things that really irritate me, taking basic horse/stockmanship and turning into something *majikal* for folks who don't know any better.
Just proves the point about that it is all about the marketing...

^ I so agree!! Its irks me to no end.. we have been doing it out here for hundreds of years!

^^yeah, this! ^^

I used to teach at a summer camp where many of the kids knew which horses were "boss" in the herd, and which ones were "followers." It doesn't require $500 worth of DVDs to figure that out.

You just have to pay attention.

Turn off the TV.

Go outside.

Spend some time interacting with your horses. There's nothing "majikal" about it.

Hi. I'm new and registered just to reply to this thread. I know my post, as an unknown user, will probably lack credentials with you guys as you all seem pretty familiar with each other. I'll just say, about myself, I've made my living as a "fixer" of problem horses, of all disciplines, and I have sat a lot of horses. I'm not a big name trainer, I sure wouldn't win money in the NRHA, but I'm effective at what I do and have been quite successful helping people, that are having a hard time, enjoy their horses.

That said, whenever I'm been called to help people with their equine issues, I have to go with whatever training they've been attempting to apply. I take time to listen to the owners to see what they've been watching, seeing, thinking, doing, etc. Then I try to set it up for them to transfer that to their horse in a meaningful way.

As related to this thread, Parelli vs. Downunder, I've noticed this about the owners that I have worked with:

The people that have chosen Downunder tend to be more aggressive than the Parelli folk. They have more of a "horse, you will listen to ME" attitude, and can be quick to blame the horse for the failure of communication. It can be difficult to get them to see that they're often in the wrong position for the action they're wanting. It can take a bit for them to understand that the horse is doing what he thinks is asked and being punished for it. Makes their horses a quivering mess when applied inappropriately. I've also worked with several that specifically chose Clinton Anderson because they felt he advocated starting out their new approach in a bridle...they were directly opposed to riding in a halter, period, and had all sorts of justification for that.

On to Parelli - the cult mentality certainly prevails there!!! LOL (I showed up to help a lady wearing "Savvy socks", I kid you not.) They're usually the opposite of the Anderson folk. They're normally way to quick to think they're applying technique in the wrong manner. Horse will act like a brat a few times, they give him a cookie, and head to the house to watch a video to see what they've done wrong. All the while their horse is hanging out in the pasture with his buddies having a nice, lazy life. LOL Most of the problems I see with the Parelli training is rewarding a horse at the wrong time, thereby teaching him incorrect responses, at best, and reinforcing disrespectful or dangerous behavior at its worst.

After speaking to so many of the people that follow "training kits", another similarity shows up...that is an underlying, often unspoken, feeling that they're not good enough, or their goals are not big enough, to seek help from a qualified, successful trainer. Or, they've gone that route and felt intimidated in that environment, or not accepted, or never good enough, or whatever, and that's where people really love being a part of the Parelli's or whoever. They belong to that group, and it can be life changing for them, so they can get pretty danged defensive about that. LOL (I've witnessed, on this thread, you guys get pretty heated about an offensive comment towards your disciplines, tack, political views, etc., so you should know how that goes...)

Just my observations. The people I work with are just normal, everyday owners that (usually) have realistic goals for their horsemanship. And, it must be said, that they were having problems with applying the programs, so these are not the stellar success stories that I know are out there...I've seen amazing transformations using both programs! Truly amazing! And, that's all anyone wants, right? To see horses and riders doing amazing things, in harmony with each other, right?

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Bayhorse1221, what do you think the success to failure rate would be for both trainers, in your experience?

Success is a relative term, so thought I'd lay out what I've seen with that in mind. (Glad that blizzard past through yesterday so I'd have an excuse to sit around, trying to figure out how to define success rate. )

Dropout rate: Parelli. Parelli seems to get everyone all worked into a fervor, all excited to get started and become awesome horseman, and then...reality. I see more owners that buy all the products, join the group, etc, and in two years are no longer following the program. Sometimes they continue with another trainer or sometimes they just have pasture pets.

Transformation, of both horse and rider: Parelli. The students that have continued on, through the higher levels of Parelli, make bigger transformations in themselves, as well as with their horses. They may not go on to be competitive riders, but they are normally students that would not have made it in a more traditional horse environment. People that would have simply gone trail riding and that's it, happy with walking along and maybe trotting, doing flying changes or jumping obstacles bareback is success to me. A lot of the Downunder students that I see, that are successful, would have succeeded regardless of the program they chose, they often just needed a direction to be pointed.

Going on to competitive disciplines: Downunder. Hands down on this one. The Downunder folk are more likely to participate in competitive events after getting a foundation with Clint. The Parelli followers that I know, that are in higher levels, seem content with staying inside the Parelli realm of things, and haven't tried to apply what they know in that arena.

Biggest failure of program I have witnessed: Parelli!!! Twice, two different episodes. First one - an extremely talented young lady I knew, that worked exclusively with difficult horses, volunteered to take a young mare through the Parelli program for the owner. The mare actually wasn't difficult with this rider and progressed very quickly so the owner signed them up for a four day clinic with a certified instructor. The whole thing was on tape, which I later watched and it was pretty bad. The instructor could not see what the rider was doing to establish confidence in the mare, and continually insisted that the duo speed up, slow down, tighten the rein, do this, do that, etc., until the rider excused herself from the clinic. After the clinic, she talked with the instructor, respectfully and politely, and was met with rude, hard headed "my way or the highway" attitude. The instructor advised the owner that the mare looked safe for the owner to ride...long story short, one month later the owner was in the ER with some broken bones, the instructor had been tossed twice and was saying the horse needed to be sent to a "horse specialist". This was second hand for me, so I couldn't tell him that the horse was with a horse specialist and he was too blind to see it, as she didn't have Parelli tattooed on her bum.., Second big fail: also a very talented rider and incompetent instructor, again certified. Rider was very natural with horses but had never had formal lessons, just grew up horseback in a rodeo family. I'm pretty sure this young lady could have done every trick in the Parelli book when she started but one year later she was second-guessing herself, would just not ride for long periods, only watched Parelli...did not enjoy horses anymore. I went to church with her, and asked her to go for a ride with me and one of my young horses - she actually looked scared to death to go riding! This was a woman that I had seen, a few years before, laughing and joking about a spoiled, silly filly trying to pitch her for an hour.

So, just some things I've seen. Should be noted that I've worked with more Parelli-ers, because of where I have lived (Ft. Worth and Colorado, particularly) and because I started seeing them crop up way back in '99. Both of the fail incidences happened in the early 2000's. Finally said more than my $.02 and can get back to work! LOL

That was a good question, Cowchick.

Thanks for the well thought out answer bayhorse!

I have to give kudos and respect for all those able to train for the public.
It seems that being a trainer for the public is like the clean up person, you kinda come along sweep up all the broken pieces and try to put them back together.

I used to(a long time ago) take on a few horses in the summer to ride and gave it up out of frustration. I could make the horses right again, but not the people. And the Parelli-ites were the worst of them, just from my experience.