Clinton V.S. Pat - Page 7
 
 

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Clinton V.S. Pat

This is a discussion on Clinton V.S. Pat within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        12-15-2012, 04:22 AM
      #61
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pegasus1    
    I've tried using a lunge whip, to "whippy". The advantage of the carrot stick is that it is stiff. It allows the use of steady pressure on the horse which is not possible with a flexible stick.
    I have also found by testing on my wife (just kidding, my hand actually :) ) that used with the same force a flexible whip causes much more pain than I can achieve with a carrot stick. I assume that CAs stick has similar characteristics as he probably got the idea when he was training under the Parelli system. I'd just choose the cheapest.
    Incidentally I have seen cheap copies of the carrot stick by other manufacturers and considered buying them, but they were just to flexible.

    Believe it or not, that is why I prefer to use a dressage whip or a buggy whip when lunging. IF, and I say IF I need a hrose to move off or away from me NOW! Then I don't feel that the carrot stick has the umph, nor can I manipulate it with the speed I need. And due to it's weight and clumsiness, if I am working up close to a horse, having them circle me real close, and I need to get a shoulder off me pronto, I can't get the darn carrot stick to do much at close quarters.

    A dressage whip just has to be vibrated in the air real quick and the hrose will move away immediately. I rarely ever actually hit a horse. Mostly either vibrate to make a noise, or just touch them lightly with the soft tip.
    I see folks with carrot sticks swinging and swinging and swinging the rope, and too many times the horse makes no change. So, the biggesdt they can get with the carrot stick gets no response, so the hrose ends up needing MORE.

    However, I have seen Pat himself (in video) working with a horse at liberty with a carrot stick and it was a joy to watch.
    themacpack likes this.
         
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        12-15-2012, 06:48 AM
      #62
    Foal
    I have to say that when I first used a carrot stick I did not find it an easy tool. It is something I had to learn to use properly. In fact in the program they suggest a few exercises to get handy with the stick and string which only take a few minutes but do make a big difference. It is such a versatile tool that does take a while to get a feel for how to use it in different situations.

    I know that you could switch tools according to the situation and use a lunge whip for circling, a stiffer stick close in etc. But with a little practise the carrot stick can passable do all these things and I don't have to stop the exercise to get the tool I need now and miss the moment I need it in.

    As for making a noise that's easy. Just hit the ground behind the horse with the string, that makes a big noise !

    If I am working close in with a horse I tend to not use the stick and string, but the stick with a bag on the end. An even better tool when close in is a horsemanship flag Horseman's Flag . Just wish I could work out how to make one cheaper. And people say Parelli equipment is expensive . The disadvantage of this is that I have switched tools as noted above.

    Again when close to the horse, if trying to get it to yield to steady pressure then I find that the stiffness of the stick is a great asset. Horse can lean on the pressure from the stick as much as they like and it will barely bend which teaches them that pushing into pressure does not work. If it were to give then they would learn pushing does work. I know you can use your fingers for this, but when working with a horse I don't know I prefer to be 4 feet away to start with and the stick allows this. Maybe I am just a coward.

    I often turn the stick around if I need to really get the horse out of my space as the handle has more weight to it. I can then tap them with the handle end if needed to get them to back out of my space. That is something you really can't do effectively with a whip.

    If you want to work a long way from the horse I sometimes add an extra string to the end of the first string to almost double the reach. The length of the carrot stick (4 feet) the string (6 feet) and your arm (2 feet) is designed to make the combination the right length when using a 12 foot rope. Using a longer rope you may need more length, but then you shouldn't be on a 22 foot rope until the horse is responding pretty well to the cues on the 12 foot rope.

    In summary I would say that there are tools that will do specific jobs better. The lunge whip has been developed over years to be good for circling a horse after all. But like a Swizz Army Knife the carrot stick makes an adequate job of doing many things well enough without having to switch tools mid flow. With this in mind it is not really fair to compare the carrot stick with specific tools for a specific job. The question to ask is "is the carrot stick good enough for the task ?", not "is it perfect for the task ?".

    As to whether the CA or Parelli stick is better I have no idea, but they look the same to me. I would be careful about buying cheaper imitations though, they tend to not be stiff enough.
         
        12-15-2012, 09:30 AM
      #63
    Trained
    I guess I'm missing something here. Why would I want to poke a horse with a stick?

    I've watched a trainer break Lilly. I've watched her start Mia over from the beginning. I watched her work Trooper for 5 weeks. I've done ground work, under her supervision and alone, with all three. Not only have I never poked a horse with a stick, whip, or carrot of any length, but I've never been tempted to do so. Why is poking a horse with a stick a good idea?
    twp likes this.
         
        12-15-2012, 09:37 AM
      #64
    Trained
    Its possible that mia is more sensitive than some other horses. I never used any sort of stick or whip with gypsy either, even though I started her using CA methods. I just pointed with my hand or swung a rope if I needed to. I have trained other horses who are lazy clods who may sometimes need to be tapped with a stick to get them with the program.

    Personally I don't think anyone stole anything from anyone. The sticks are basically the same and lots of people use them.
         
        12-15-2012, 09:55 AM
      #65
    Trained
    ^^ That makes sense.
         
        12-15-2012, 09:55 AM
      #66
    Showing
    I've tried the carrot stick, not mine, and found it's weight hard on the wrist. I cut down an old lunge whip, added the leather tab and found some cotton rope. That was much easier on the wrist. That lasted about one session as I knew there had to be something better. Ah, the dressage whip. Much better but still a little too stiff. I wound up cutting a long thin willowy branch, stripped off the leaves - perfect. It weighs nothing and one quickly becomes adept at making the end sing. That gets a reluctant horse moving yet to touch the horse with the tip it's as light as a fly. It's tough to market willow branches.
    twp likes this.
         
        12-15-2012, 10:04 AM
      #67
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    I guess I'm missing something here. Why would I want to poke a horse with a stick?

    I've watched a trainer break Lilly. I've watched her start Mia over from the beginning. I watched her work Trooper for 5 weeks. I've done ground work, under her supervision and alone, with all three. Not only have I never poked a horse with a stick, whip, or carrot of any length, but I've never been tempted to do so. Why is poking a horse with a stick a good idea?
    What do you do with your leg when you ride ? Apply steady pressure to get them to move off it. So you poke them with your leg That pressure may be very light, but it is still steady pressure.

    Using the stick you can apply that steady pressure whilst on the ground to prepare them for a similar sensation when riding them. As I said in the earlier post this can be done with your fingers, but that means getting up close and personal with the horse, a place you may not wish to be if they are reactive to such pressure.

    Filly was very reactive to start with as I have documented on this forum, I would not have wanted to be too close. However by using the stick to apply the pressure using the phases of pressure to hair, skin, muscle, bone and releasing at the phase of pressure that caused the desired response we worked through the dangerous phase to where we are now, which is the lightest touch with my fingers.
    When riding the other day I was getting the prettiest hind quarter yields through 360 degrees with the lightest pressure from my leg, but it all started with the pressure coming from the carrot stick.

    Now of course there are other places that we might want to apply steady pressure such as the chest to get them to back up, both for handling in the stable and riding (think string around neck when brideless). Using fingers to start this process on a young untrained horse is asking for them to bite you. Using the stick and standing in front of them I am out of harms way whilst they work out the correct response to that pressure. I can also hold it for longer if needed as my fingers won't get so tired. If it takes a long time I actually just lean on it with my body. This is definitely not possible with a flexible whip.

    For more info on this look at my post on the 7 games thread. In Parelli land we call it the Porcupine game. The game of yielding to steady pressure.
         
        12-15-2012, 10:17 AM
      #68
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Pegasus1    
    What do you do with your leg when you ride ? Apply steady pressure to get them to move off it. So you poke them with your leg That pressure may be very light, but it is still steady pressure.

    Using the stick you can apply that steady pressure whilst on the ground to prepare them for a similar sensation when riding them. As I said in the earlier post this can be done with your fingers, but that means getting up close and personal with the horse, a place you may not wish to be if they are reactive to such pressure...
    Hmm. With Lilly & Mia, we (the trainer & I) used the stirrup to simulate the heel. Prior to that, we used flapping the fenders, rubbing them with the dressage whip, rubbing them with lariats, draping a rope down & around their hind legs, etc to get them used to feeling things there.

    The tip of a stick might approximate the feel of a spur, but the stirrup (or fender if we were using a western saddle) did a pretty good job of imitating the leg or heel. Mia needed a lot of desensitizing to her sides and rear legs so she could learn bit cues from the ground. She was fine with having her rear legs handled, but a rope rubbing against them would panic her at first. Once she got used to that, then it was time for learning bit cues. Leg cues followed that. Here is the trainer working with her on bit cues. It took about 6 weeks to get here, and a couple more before the first mount:



    twp likes this.
         
        12-15-2012, 12:17 PM
      #69
    Foal
    A carrot stick /handy stick is meant only to be an extension of your arm. Attach a string to it and you have a really long arm. Especially early in a horses training it is much better to have the end of your stick in certain places than your actual arm. It is designed to be used in replacement of your actual body parts until it is safe to have your body parts there. As the horse gets better trained and more respectful, it becomes a much less necessary tool. I am pretty much down now to using the swinging end of a lead rope (I like a really long lead rope...15 feet) to get my point across and as things progress I will likely not need that. The term as gentle as possible and as firm as necessary applies to sticks as well. If necessary the bullwhip would come out, if I needed a REALLY strong extension of my arm. Neither Pat Parelli or CA claim invention of the stick...at least I have never heard them claim it...although they both claim to have superior craftsmanship on their product...but who doesn't. LOL.

    I have made my own sticks from fencing rods, wood rowels and cut down lunge whips. They all work, some better than others. I do prefer my CA stick as the bugs have been worked out of it and I don't have to remake it all the time.


    CA studying under PP is an old wives tale started by PP followers. Their styles are totally different and if you follow their timelines through their careers, there is no place it could have happened. Both good trainers with exceptional careers but not clones of each other...actually came form two different continents. I prefer CA just cause I can't listen to PP. He drives me nuts...but he is a great trainer who learn from GREAT trainers.

    Cheers.
    Les
         
        12-15-2012, 05:33 PM
      #70
    twp
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saddlebag    
    I've tried the carrot stick, not mine, and found it's weight hard on the wrist. I cut down an old lunge whip, added the leather tab and found some cotton rope. That was much easier on the wrist. That lasted about one session as I knew there had to be something better. Ah, the dressage whip. Much better but still a little too stiff. I wound up cutting a long thin willowy branch, stripped off the leaves - perfect. It weighs nothing and one quickly becomes adept at making the end sing. That gets a reluctant horse moving yet to touch the horse with the tip it's as light as a fly. It's tough to market willow branches.
    See, That's what I was thinking.. They have something like a carrot stick at TSC, (The Fiberglass Cattle prod, with out the Shock, lol.) It was really Heavy.. I bet Pat is friggin ripped! Lol.

    Since I don't own a lunge line, I do the small circles on a lead line.. I just make the kissie noise, and mah pony goes.. Sometimes I swing the end of the lead.. If I want more line, I pull up a cat tail.. Can you say "Redneckitry" ?! Lol. It totally works though!
         

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