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Clinton V.S. Pat

This is a discussion on Clinton V.S. Pat within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        12-26-2012, 06:24 AM
      #81
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kayhmk    
    I like your thinking on this! I think it would be so perfect for my girl. I'm not too well-versed in Parelli (have his book and done the level 1 stuff, vintage 1999) so I don't know if and how (or where) he goes about teaching sideways towards the handler, but would LOVE to hear & learn about it! Can you tell me more?

    (Sorry to take the thread on a tangent.)
    As in all things, it it a step by step process. Clearly we are not going to be able to use steady pressure to push on the far side of the horse to help it step over, so we need to be thinking driving pressure. The first thing I do is to get them confident with a stick and flag as a signalling tool. Do not desensitise them to it, we want them to respond sensitively but with confidence to its signals.

    Once that is done we then want to be able to do very good sideways away from us using the flag to alternatively drive the shoulder away a step, then the hips, then the shoulder, then the hips etc. This establishes the signal to move whichever part of the body is being signalled by the flag to move away.
    The signalling must be done in phases. First a still flag in the correct position, then a lightly waving flag, then however hard you have to wave it, up to and including the flag touching the shoulder or hip.

    Once this response is good when standing to the side of the horse, try and stand in front and see if you can drive them sideways whilst you sidestep with them whilst in front of them.

    By now the horse is well used to flag signals and now comes the physically hard bit on your arms (You can cheat a bit by standing on a mounting block). Whilst standing to the horses side reach over their back and ask the hind quarters to take a step towards you, going up the phases as I have mentioned. Even if all you see is a weight shift towards you quit. It was a "try" and needs rewarding. Then ask again and keep asking until a little more effort is made than last time, then quit. Each time go up the phases, however keen you are to get the movement don't rush it. Once you have a hind quarter step do the same with the shoulder and so on.

    Eventually your horse will come over to you from a distance if you just raise you hand up as though you had a stick and flag in it without actually having one. Hence the importance of going through the phases everytime and quitting on the slightest improvement in the try.

    Have fun, I've really enjoyed teaching my horses this and it is a really practical skill. Both for mounting, accurate positioning to load in a trailer and many other occasions it has helped me out. Don't really see what Clinton has against it if it is done not as a party trick, but with a purpose.
         
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        01-04-2013, 10:18 AM
      #82
    Weanling
    I've been reading through this thread, and find it kind of amusing that so many people think that just because one person created a specific product (like the Almighty Majikal Carrot Stick), they are the first person to EVER use a device like that, in that way. . .and that all those who have come before with their "lunge whips" and "dressage whips" and "jumping bats/crops" were using them for totally different purposes.

    And, that those purposes were not even close to what the Majikal Schtick was intended for.

    One post referred to horses that acted "spooky" when confronted with a riding crop. Don't people ever stop to think that, if the horse's only past experience has been with riding crops was being batted with one, that it would have that reaction?

    A riding crop CAN be used to "direct" a horse, like an extension of your arm. . .and you don't need to spend $$$ on a video series to figure out how to do that.

    At the same time, a Majikal Carrot Schtick could be used as a riding crop, to "pop" the horse in the flank or drive it forward on a lunge line. . .and the horse wouldn't think of it any differently just because Carrot Sticks were originally "intended" for another purpose.

    The horse doesn't care what it's called. The horse doesn't care if the "inventor" of the object looks like he has a squirrel coming out of his nose, or if he speaks with an Australian accent and ends all of his sentences with the word "mate."

    If I walked up to a horse carrying a bath towel and suddenly started waving it in the horse's face while yelling at the animal, or swatting at its legs or flanks, that horse would likely startle or spook. From that point on, it may have "issues" with having flappy-things waved around it.

    If I approached the horse in a calm manner and slowly started grooming the horse with the cloth, running it over the face and eyes, it might be nervous at first but would eventually calm down and relax. Might even start to like it.

    Calling the bath towel what it is, or giving it a new name (like a Jolly Badger Warm-Fuzzy Snuggle-Paw) won't change anything. Having my name and emblem stamped all over it won't change what it is, it just means I can charge a ton more money for it and some sucker out there will pay.

    How I use it in training is all that really matters.
         
        01-06-2013, 05:51 AM
      #83
    Foal
    I tend to agree with the previous post. However I will say that there is a difference in the quality of the various sticks. I tend to use Carrot Sticks, and no I don't pay full price. Parelli regularly have promotional sales and I buy them when they are cheap.
    I tend to have three available when I am training a horse. One with a bag or flag attached, one with a string and one with nothing. I could get away with one and change the attached items, but that takes time and if I need to switch it tends to be that I need to switch NOW not in a few minutes.
    One thing I would NOT buy again is a Parelli Junior Carrot stick, they are just too flimsy and last about two weeks. The full size ones are incredibly strong and I have had horse canter over them and not even scratch them, with shoes on. I have heard that some of the copies are just not that tough.
    As to using other tools like lunge whips instead of carrot sticks that is fine. As my trainer James used to say (he was a farrier before becoming a horse trainer) "I can shoe a horse with any hammer you like, it is just more elegant and efficient to use the correct tool".
    I feel the same. If all I can pick up is a stick in the woods, it will suffice, but using the correct tool for the job, a carrot stick, lunge whip, short whip etc is just more elegant and efficient. The carrot stick was designed to do a specific job well and it fills that niche. A lunge whip was also designed to do a specific job well and through centuries of development it is also well adapted to that job.
    The trick is to use the right tool for the job at hand not get caught up in marketing, or anti marketing, hype.
    Nokotaheaven likes this.
         
        01-07-2013, 12:07 AM
      #84
    Yearling
    I believe that Road to the Horse proved once and for all that Chris Cox owns them both.
         
        01-07-2013, 12:28 AM
      #85
    Super Moderator
    I saw last year (2011) road to the horse. From that and some other things, I pretty much got the feeling that I didn't jive too well with Clinton Anderson. Parelli did not do too badly, just that he simply could not stop talking. And CA was huffing and puffing and making all kinds of clicking and shushing noises.

    And Chris Cox, just works quietly, quietly, giving his colt breaks and just hanging in there , calm , quiet and firm. He's quality.
         
        01-07-2013, 11:31 AM
      #86
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    I saw last year (2011) road to the horse. From that and some other things, I pretty much got the feeling that I didn't jive too well with Clinton Anderson. Parelli did not do too badly, just that he simply could not stop talking. And CA was huffing and puffing and making all kinds of clicking and shushing noises.

    And Chris Cox, just works quietly, quietly, giving his colt breaks and just hanging in there , calm , quiet and firm. He's quality.
    I really like Chris Cox too, I would LOVE to go to one of his clinics. I think overall he is a better trainer than either CA or PP but he is not as good at training people as CA is. That is the one big thing that he has over the others is how good he is a delivering his method to people, especially those who don't have a lot of horse training experience.

    Cheers!
    Les
    HorseCrazyTeen likes this.
         
        01-08-2013, 07:25 AM
      #87
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ian McDonald    
    I believe that Road to the Horse proved once and for all that Chris Cox owns them both.
    Would love to have watched it. Paid for the internet feed but it didn't work. Won't waste my money on a live feed again.
         
        01-12-2013, 08:19 PM
      #88
    Super Moderator
    There is just something about CA that rubs me the wrong way. I find that I am in the minority on that, though. He is uber popular here.
         
        01-12-2013, 08:40 PM
      #89
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jolly Badger    

    If I walked up to a horse carrying a bath towel and suddenly started waving it in the horse's face while yelling at the animal, or swatting at its legs or flanks, that horse would likely startle or spook. From that point on, it may have "issues" with having flappy-things waved around it.

    If I approached the horse in a calm manner and slowly started grooming the horse with the cloth, running it over the face and eyes, it might be nervous at first but would eventually calm down and relax. Might even start to like it.

    Calling the bath towel what it is, or giving it a new name (like a Jolly Badger Warm-Fuzzy Snuggle-Paw) won't change anything. Having my name and emblem stamped all over it won't change what it is, it just means I can charge a ton more money for it and some sucker out there will pay.

    How I use it in training is all that really matters.
    "AND if you call within the next 30 seconds we will give you TWO Jolly Badger Warm-fuzzy Snuggle Paws for the price of one! All you have to do is pay additional shipping and handling!"

    I kind have to laugh...Long time ago I went to work for a cutting horse trainer starting colts and on the first day he hands me the lead rope of a snorty barely halter broke colt and a livestock whip with a dish towel duct taped to the end....LOL and tells me to get to work.
    So I can vouch that the Jolly Badger Warm-Fuzzy snuggle Paw does work.
         
        01-12-2013, 09:44 PM
      #90
    Super Moderator
    I want one! I want one!
         

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