Hey guys, so I was at schooling show with my friend and she was showing her 4yr old, OTTB mare, sold to her by her trainer. So, her trainer gets on and warms the horse up for her and asks my friend to go get a pill for the horse from the trailer. I ask what it's for and she says it's to make her horse "safer" for her. Turns out, she was ACE-ONG her horse before the english classes, and her trainer was completely aware what she was doing. Should I tell my friend that her trainer really doesn't have her interests at heart, or should I just sit back and let them do their thing? Personally, if my trainer sells me a horse that's out of my skill level, and is fine with drugging it for a win, I would run. What would y'all do? Posted via Mobile Device
Yup. Unfortunately becoming very common. I worked at one of the top barns in Canada and, while they didn't use ace before a show, there was one horse in particular that was not ever ridden without being given chill first. That horse was nuts and needed it so I never had a problem with it... Until someone came to look at the horse and they tried to sell it as a calm hunter jumper for a mid level, fairly timid rider without disclosing that this horse was vicious and unpredictable when he didn't get his chill......
It's just part and parcel with the show world unfortunately... It is what it is. At least you know better but it's not always illegal to use ace so if your friend and their trainer aren't breaking any rules, it all comes down to personal choice. Posted via Mobile Device
Very common I'm afraid. Why many shows are drug testing horses. The problem is there are too many drugs and not enough enforcement.
I knew a trainer who never trained his horses to load. He would drug them for every trailer ride to and from the shows. He also gave banamine for every colic instead of calling the vet. He said his horses didn't live past 20.
The rest of the time they were stuck in stalls with no turnout. Terrible way to live.
I have a friend that aces for all of her shows. I don't think any of the local level shows do any sort of testing. People don't realize that what they are doing is quite unsafe. Horses that have been aced tend to trip and stumble. They also don't retain any of the "training" that they might receive while aced so really, the main reason people do it, is to cheat.
One day pee tests will be done at the shows too. I over heard one lady "(profanity) the bute is wearing off". The horse was beginning to limp. Question regarding Ace. When my NH was trailered about 300 km his owner said she'd given him Ace. Now, there are two drugs called Ace. One is Acetazolamide (sp) and Acepromazine. Acetazolamide is a diuretic and is given to horses, especially an NH to get them to pee. Acepromazine has a tranquilizing effect. Perhaps the horse was a nervous hauler. I never did clarify this with his previous owner. It was a one time use. Can someone tell me how Acepromazine affects a horse, what to look for, etc.
Both types of Aces are illegal in shows unless your horse is HYPP/NH or HH and even then you have to fill out a form to declare the use before you show. As for Bute, certain amounts of it are usually legal in most shows.
I worked with a really well known HUS horse with my previous employer. He could not even be at a show without ACE. The problem was he was drugged almost his entire show career. He was a wildly successful in his day, but when he got older and turned into a youth horse it became a problem. When he wasn't drugged he was very hard to handle. Very spooky, would freak out randomly, etc. He would even have meltdowns in his stall....just randomly.
There IMO is some serious long term effects to people doing this to horses often. An even at the breed shows people still do it and get away with it.
I used to work at an Arabian barn, where instead of using Ace, they used Melatonin. In my personal opinion, if a horse has to be drugged to be ridden and/or shown, it has no place being in the show ring.
Its not your horse, hence its not your problem or business. This is how you become successful at the upper levels, by keeping your mouth shut and your nose out of what other trainers or riders are doing. My barn policy is exactly the same as the trainers I had coming up through the ranks " if its not your horse its not your business what they do or dont do to it".
I show at the upper levels and I really dont care if someone has holes in their horses side from spurs or is shooting it up to hopefully be sound for a class or two. Its not my horse and I am not the rider on it. I mind my own business and get my job done with the horses under MY care. This keeps the stress levels down and a target off your back. While I show for the money, its really nice not to have to worry about getting railed, when you PO either another big trainer or worse yet a judge that is also a trainer.
Its not your horse, hence its not your problem or business. This is how you become successful at the upper levels, by keeping your mouth shut and your nose out of what other trainers or riders are doing. My barn policy is exactly the same as the trainers I had coming up through the ranks " if its not your horse its not your business what they do or dont do to it".
You're right ^. I'm not going to say anything. I'm definitely not at the upper levels by any means, even though I know quite a few professionals, but I know if I want to get there I should just keep my mouth shut. Thanks for all of the comments, guys! Posted via Mobile Device
If I was competing against someone that was using drugs on their horse because it was the only way they could show it and they were beating me then I would certainly say something about it
The reason this stuff keeps going on is because too many people turn a blind eye. It's cheating and needs to be stopped
If speaking up might mean you being asked to leave the barn and you have no where else to go then you might have to think harder about it
I know this won't make me popular, but where do you guys draw the line? Maybe you are only one step of away from being like the Big Lick people and soring? Because it helps you win and everyone is doing it so it must be okay?
I would be ashamed of myself if I drugged my trail horse because I couldn't handle it. I would throw in the towel and say the horse is too much for me before I did that. And what I do doesn't effect other people like it does at a show. You guy don't consider that downright cheating? If that horse beat you, wouldn't you feel it was unfair?
I think it shows a serious lack of morals in both the riders and the trainers if this is considered the accepted norm. :-(
But then again, that's why I just ride for the fun of it. I actually have horses because I love horses. What a concept. :shock:
I know horses can be dangerous and get you hurt. But if we are drugging horses just to win a ribbon, what's the point? If it acts up, well, crap happens and better luck next time. They are sensitive prey animals after all and we know that going in.
Say the hypothetical show horse, which has done well but been drugged most of it's career, then retires to the breeding shed. How do you even know if you want to breed to that horse? How do you know if it even has a good temperment and it's offspring will as well? How do you know you are not just breeding a nervous wreck? Ideally we should be breeding for a sound mind and body. People already breed horses of questionable soundness for the sake of showing. Now we have to worry about their mental health as well?
Give me a good solid using horse any day. I don't care if it has papers or if it comes from the BLM (actually, I had one of those and he was the best horse I've ever ridden). I am starting to think all show bloodlines are a negative, the same way halter Quarter Horse bloodlines are a negative. :evil:
I like the concept of showing. But the reality seems to be that when people focus on showing they ruin the breed they are showing.
I know this won't make me popular, but where do you guys draw the line? Maybe you are only one step of away from being like the Big Lick people and soring? Because it helps you win and everyone is doing it so it must be okay?
I would be ashamed of myself if I drugged my trail horse because I couldn't handle it. I would throw in the towel and say the horse is too much for me before I did that. And what I do doesn't effect other people like it does at a show. You guy don't consider that downright cheating? If that horse beat you, wouldn't you feel it was unfair?
I think it shows a serious lack of morals in both the riders and the trainers if this is considered the accepted norm. :-(
But then again, that's why I just ride for the fun of it. I actually have horses because I love horses. What a concept. :shock:
I know horses can be dangerous and get you hurt. But if we are drugging horses just to win a ribbon, what's the point? If it acts up, well, crap happens and better luck next time. They are sensitive prey animals after all and we know that going in.
Say the hypothetical show horse, which has done well but been drugged most of it's career, then retires to the breeding shed. How do you even know if you want to breed to that horse? How do you know if it even has a good temperment and it's offspring will as well? How do you know you are not just breeding a nervous wreck? Ideally we should be breeding for a sound mind and body. People already breed horses of questionable soundness for the sake of showing. Now we have to worry about their mental health as well?
Give me a good solid using horse any day. I don't care if it has papers or if it comes from the BLM (actually, I had one of those and he was the best horse I've ever ridden). I am starting to think all show bloodlines are a negative, the same way halter Quarter Horse bloodlines are a negative. :evil:
I like the concept of showing. But the reality seems to be that when people focus on showing they ruin the breed they are showing.
Like Wares said some shows/assoc. it is legal and some it is not.
Do I think it is fair? Not really.
But I know that I didn't ACE my horse to get through a class or show and I relied on my training, had trust in my horse to do his job, rode to the best of my ability to place how I did.
If the show didn't go well I go home and work on what needs to be fixed. Maybe my horse needs more exposure to the show/rodeo environment, maybe I need to change my warm up routine to get him focused. One thing I have learned is that you show the horse you brought, you don't change your training in the warm up pen or do whatever(drugging) because you feel intimidated by what you see in the warm up pen. It is the fastest way to ruin a good show horse and you are beat mentally before you make the show ring.
Please don't think that all show bloodlines have bad temperaments because some people ACE. I have a few horses that are bred decent that come from reined cowhorse/reining lines and even though they get excited at a show and a little charg-y on cattle I have never thought of ACE-ing to hopefully place better. In my opinion if someone has to ACE, either the time hasn't been put in to acclimate the horse to the pressures of showing or the horse simply doesn't have the temperament to make a solid show mount.
The association that sanctions the show has rules. Make sure they have a rule about drugging before you report. In most cases it's just best to keep your mouth shut. The ones who go running to the officials are looked down upon especially if there is no testing, ergo no proof. It just makes you look like a poor sport and word gets around, sad but true. Posted via Mobile Device
Personally, I don't think ace is all that bad. If the horse is dangerous then that's ok. and by the way ace isn't given by a pill it is a liquid that could be given orally or in a shot.
If my daughter cannot ride her horse at a show without drugs, then she has no business showing. We spend hours training both horse and child every week. The horse show is where she gets to test her progress. Drugging a horse is just like cheating on the test.
I will forgive bute for minor ailments, but I believe it is abuse if a horse is truly injured to bute them up and risk further injury all for a bit of satin or even $$$. The horse's welfare must be first. Does it suck to arrive at a show and realize your horse is lame? Yes. But I would rather not show and lose the money than cause our horse more pain and risk ruining her for life. Posted via Mobile Device
Ace if available in a tablet form and often used on stall rest horses. The normal dose is 2 to 4 tablets daily.
Again, at the end of the day its best to just walk away. While I may not agree the way some trainers train and they may not like what I do either, we have the agreement to just mind our own business and let the chips fall where they may. If you are lucky, you will just be considered a nuisance and your life made uncomfortable, if you are not so lucky you or your horse may end up hurt and for what, because you stuck your nose where it shouldnt have been. Just walk away. Trust me, the ones relying on the drugs run into problems at some point. They either end up with a horse they misread and give too much, which can cause a crash and burn, or they dont give enough and their client becomes a yard dart in public.
I have said something before. I'm not the kind of person that screams abuse at someone with a harsh hand or even a quick temper. But I was at a show where an old man (who apparently is a very well known, very highly thought of trainer) had put cathedral bits in his horses mouths and then tied the reins to the saddle horn so tight they had their mouths wide open. It was awful to look at. He won his classes later that day so the people running the shows allowed it. I also heard comments from competitors, offended remarks that basically said you can cheat at this show and you won't get in trouble. I don't show there anymore and that's been hard on me because it's a really great series and tons of fun.
I'm not worried about being blackballed at a show for reporting something that is wrong. Again, I'm not going to run and tattle because someone warms up in an illegal bit or uses bungees in a back ring. But drugging or major abuse should always be reported in my opinion and shame on the show or the association for allowing it. The next time I see something like what I saw that day, I'm going to snap a picture and mail it to the association. The rest is on them.
Standing back and doing nothing isn't the right thing to do, but I do completely understand where that could and does happen. and it's hard to blame someone or say they are wrong for standing by and watching because the chances that they will be blackballed over it are very likely....
I feel like if you know how to handle a horse and how to season a young one properly, you are horseman enough to not need the ACE.
There were opportunities for me to drug Selena when I was trying to show her in reining. Probably would of had us winning. Instead I opted to work her through her insecurities and she became a great show horse. She still gets a little hot every now and then but I would trust her with a kid in the ring any day. If I had drugged her, she'd probably still need to be drugged for years to come.
I think its interesting that people decry the use of drugs in the thoroughbred racing world but think using drugs in a horse show is okay. Isn't it the same coin but different sides? I also think its a slippery slope. Ace is okay and a small amount of bute is okay, injecting hocks are okay but banamine is bad and forcing your horse to work through pain is bad. I think we we are going to tar one industry with the drugs are bad and need better/stronger enforcement that we should take that same brush to other areas of the equine industry.
In my opinion, if you need to ace your horse to ride than you need to go back in training. Self control is important and can be/should be taught. I can see its value in horses (particularly young active horses) that are put on stall rest after an injury. Using a tranquilizer because your healthy horse is unmannerly is just poor training.
Farmpony, if you are lucky you just get blackballed. I was at a show, three years ago, and stabled next to another trainer, who also holds a judges card. We had 14 stalls and they had about 20, so between the two of us we had an entire row. I swear the show management stuck me there, because we are a sure fire group to shut up and walk away. I dont ever think I have seen such a group of trash.
If it was just one horse in their bunch, that was getting worked over well I might have figured it was just a tough nut, but no over half had spur holes in them. I am not talking some missing hair a little blood, I am talking finger deep holes. They had an assistant with them that did nothing but lunge horses for hours at a time all night long. They even had the row blocked at their stalls, so you had to walk all the way around the barn. This had the makings of the worst show ever. I spent the weekend just drinking my coffee, racking up our winnings, and enjoying our own group.
However, one of those must get involved people from a row over decided to stir the pot. Bad move on their part. By the end of the show , they had a hurt rider, who had been railed and word had got to the other judges about their running to the show management. The do gooders horses and riders were blacklisted and I have not seen that group since the beginning of last year, when I think they have finally given up trying show. However, the group of chaos is still going strong and winning. Do I agree with it, well no, but life is much happier for me and my group with our beer goggles on.
ACE is also unsafe for male horses so ive heard...if we are talking about the same ACE...acepromazine? that is serious stuff...i wouldnt feel safe on a horse drugged with that ive seen how it really knocks them out...that is crazy...
I know what you been BugZapper, with my extremely short stint in low level racing there were barn rows you just didn't walk down...
The show world is what you make of it in my opinion and it all isn't evil for the sake of winning a buckle/ribbon/check.
You can get ****** about what other people do or you can enjoy what you do within it. After all showing is basically paying for someone else's opinion.
It truly never is completely fair or unbiased all the way across the board.
I am not condoning abuse or drugging nor does every one or all big name trainers do it either. I enjoy showing and rodeoing and I know sometimes someone gets the upper hand by doing something shady. But I know that I did the right thing and shown to the best of my abilities.
Cowchick, that pretty much sums it up. Showing is suppose to be fun for the clients and ammy and or youth exhibitors. Oddly enough, that group did have a wreck early this year and their client became a yard dart on a 50K horse. I guess they missed on the dose and it woke up. I have beaten them plenty, but they never bother or harass us. I much rather have it that way, then cause a scene at a show and while they may get a slap on the wrist, you are sure to get a lifetime of misery. I just keep them on my OFF list for prospects.
:shock: Holy crap!!! This makes my hair stand on end.
I have been away from the show world a long time. Give me a good trail horse, the wide open spaces, and a nice day. Nothing to prove and no trail pals with a thought of competition.
If you keep your attention on your horse, your performance and your coach, you don't have the attention to notice, nor care what others are doing. When I am showing, my focus is my horse and my performance, I have no idea what others are doing except when the gossips attempt to tell me, lol. Posted via Mobile Device
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