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Feel like I wasted $1300 - vent post

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        10-17-2013, 03:10 PM
      #111
    Green Broke
    ^I think you're missing my point.

    Firstly, politicians are elected officials. That's slightly different than someone you hire under contract.

    Secondly, I wasn't claiming that $1,300 is an unreasonable amount to charge for training. Not by a long shot. That seems fairly reasonable for a month of training.

    What I am saying is, it is bad business to advertise something that you cannot provide. But, I guess the horse world is full of people that just don't care, or assume that the person paying for the service must be of subpar intellect.
         
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        10-17-2013, 03:31 PM
      #112
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zexious    
    ^I think you're missing my point.

    Firstly, politicians are elected officials. That's slightly different than someone you hire under contract.

    Secondly, I wasn't claiming that $1,300 is an unreasonable amount to charge for training. Not by a long shot. That seems fairly reasonable for a month of training.

    What I am saying is, it is bad business to advertise something that you cannot provide. But, I guess the horse world is full of people that just don't care, or assume that the person paying for the service must be of subpar intellect.
    And that's why I say to use common sense. If you see a "world champ quality QH" for sale for $300, what will you think. Trainer says "I will have the horse broke in a month w/t/c started on x-rails and trail ridden" then there's some smoke being blown. Coach says "Oh you will be in the WEG next year!!" again, use common sense. None of these things are true. It is up to the consumer/customer/client to choose where to put their money. It's not the trainers fault if they told you they can have the horse doing whatever because they've done it a few times before and it's unrealistic but you put the horse in training anyways. If a trainer told my they could have an untouched horse broke w/t/c in 6 weeks I'd laugh! Because it's a joke. Some horses it might be possible. But most individuals need that amount of ground work, long lining and lunging. We start messing with the horses beginning of their 3 year old year and don't expect solid w/t/c undersaddle until the following winter. And if they are really immature - wait even longer.

    Equate it to reading/writing - takes kids a heck of a long time to learn that, it's not fair to condense it. Basically all of elementary is for learning to read/write and as the internet has shown us, often that isn't even enough! Some kids are whizzes and end up graduating high school at 14. That doesn't mean every child, or every horse, can handle that time frame.
         
        10-17-2013, 04:12 PM
      #113
    Trained
    *SHRUGS* different horses for different courses...

    Around here there is a preference from colt starters to have something not handled, better a clean slate than something that someone has already messed up.

    Most will want them for 60 days and it that time will have them walk, trot and lope, that is just fact.

    Doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks, that is how it is done here. Are they trained finished horses, hell no, but they would be expected to come home being able to walk trot and lope, soft in the face, a good stop and be able to turn, and move away from the leg. There are no 'gaping holes' in their training, they are trained by working people who expect that the owners want a horse to actually ride. They have a foundation, it's up to you to build the rest.

    If you want to take 6 months, that's fine, the only colt I have taken from birth to saddle, I kind of left until he was 2, then spent 2 years ground working him before getting on, he still had holes, because I am no trainer.

    Still comes back to if someone tells me that they can have him going under saddle in 60 days and $1300 that's what I would expect to come home. It sounds totally reasonable time frame and price to me, and I am with the OP in being disappointed that it didn't even get close by the sounds of it.
         
        10-17-2013, 04:20 PM
      #114
    Green Broke
    Again, I think we need to read over the whole thread. It is not unrealistic to expect a horse(with a good attitude and some handling, not one with issues or previous poor handling) to be comfortable packing a person, to the extent that they are not fearful of a saddle/bridle/rider and not disrespectful, so they are capable of w/t or w/t/c. Not flawless, but has done it. The OP wanted the horse started, so they could continue the training, not a broke horse, just one with the first rides put on it. My filly can calmly w/t and she is on her second ride.

    Moreover, as has been stated previously, the issue mainly with the fact that the trainer did not communicate properly. I would be very frustrated if I met with a trainer, who said it was no problem to get to the level I wanted in a certain time frame, then they did virtually nothing with the horse in that time frame. I would expect, if my horse was harder to deal with than expected, that I would be contacted. Early on.

    As much as "buyer beware" is applicable, so is false advertising. Any ways, OP, its good to hear he is finally making some progress
    smrobs and COWCHICK77 like this.
         
        10-17-2013, 05:22 PM
      #115
    Green Broke
    It is buyer beware. Horses are individuals. The first trainer I took Reeco to said she averages 6 weeks but untill she got the horse working she couldnt tell me how long it would take. In the end she gave up after 8 weeks and no progress. The next trainer told me she didnt promise anything and sure enough 7 weeks later she only had him longreining without exploding but he was still panicy.
    The final trainer said she would take him for 4 weeks and see how she got on. She had him 9 weeks but finaly got him to the point where I could walk and trot and he was safe in traffic.

    I continued the work and a year and a half later (if you don't include the time spent on box rest for his fractured pelvis) we competed and held our own at CHAPS national championship, we can do a decent prelim dressage test and working on novice level. A better rider could probably have him working at elementary level (which I believe is a 2nd or 3rd level test depending on the test)
         
        10-17-2013, 09:01 PM
      #116
    Weanling
    This thread was totally worth reading through, just for those beautiful trail pictures. And not that my opinion counts, but you got totally ripped off!
         
        10-17-2013, 11:19 PM
      #117
    Weanling
    Haha thanks Maximas!

    Everyone who has recently started arguing on this thread again (or debating, or whatever)

    The point is, I ASKED THE TRAINER what I could expect in 1.5 months. I told her everything about my colt. She said w/t/c, no problem. I even asked her AGAIN to emphasize that he had never been touched and she said no worries.

    I believed her because I have had horses going undersaddle w/t/c in two months or less AND I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL. These horses have gone on to the show ring (only provincial level), to work on the trail, working cattle, and to be kids horses. So I figured that if I can do it, then she can.

    I got a horse back who bucked the first couple times I saddled him. A horse who I WAS NOT at ALL comfortable getting on. A horse who was "guaranteed" to go w/t/c.

    I screwed up - I was a long distance from the trainer and did not have the opportunity to check in. Through texts and calls she said he was doing "great!!!" all the time.

    This is a woman who shows all over the states, Canada, trains horses, and teaches riding lessons out of a town near Edmonton.

    I KNOW I got ripped off. I was promised one thing and did not receive anything NEAR what she said I would get for the money. That's what this thread is about.

    I realize some people may think that it takes months to get a horse started under saddle and there is nothing wrong with that. We all know the horse world is incredibly diverse. But in the horse world I grew up in it is common practice to have a colt out on the trail within a few training sessions. They grow up to be happy, healthy horses with a job, good enough for me and good enough for many people out there.

    Even if this lady was some high class trainer who needs 6 months to start a colt undersaddle I should have seen some sort of results, shouldn't I have? And shouldnt she have TOLD me she'd accomplish nothing in 30-45 days?

    I think so
    smrobs and COWCHICK77 like this.
         
        10-18-2013, 12:07 AM
      #118
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by faye    
    I'd have loved to see you try it with my lad! He'd have killed you.



    I agree, over here (UK) any trainer who says less than 6 weeks for a well handled youngster (by well handled meaning leads, ties up, wears a rug, often already bitted, worn a surcingle etc) is viewed with a lot of suspicion.

    If you break a horse it is worth doing properly and in doing it properly you make it very very eassy to take the horse on from there.
    I cringe when someone says they don't longrein before riding, It is an essential part of their education and makes schooling them afterwards that much easier. If you get a class of youngsters the ones that have ben longreined are blatently obvious as they are normaly the ones that are stronger, fitter and more advanced in thier schooling. My lad doesnt know how to move incorrectly undersaddle, he travels in a lovely outline stretching correctly over his back from the first few steps of walk, he does this because he learnt how to do it in long reins and has known nothing else undersaddle, It is a babyish outline but advancing his schooling is that much easier because he has correct basics.

    If you only train a horse as a trail horse you severely limit its market, over here 99% of non "competition" horses are trained to be allrounders who can do a low level dressage test, a round of show jumping, a bit of pony club games, a bit of trail riding, schooling, lessons etc some are better at it than others but a good allrounder has the biggest market even if it is never going to excel at anything and is ugly as sin.
    Faye, really?? Killed me? If that is the case then he must be a true glue factory horse! (that's a joke...and no, he would not of killed me...he would have been dog tired at the end of the first day though...as would've I) I did train a horse that used to run at and attempt to bite, kick, or run over anyone that came into his stall...even to feed him. I had him loping in the round pen on the 6th day and his 3rd ride. The first day he did try to kill me while I was on the ground schooling him. He is the only horse I ever had to actually hit on the head with my training stick(while moving to the side like a matador to avoid his teeth and feet). After about 3 hours of this he decided I could move his feet whereever I wanted to as long as I didn't make him run....the 2nd day he tried me again, for about 30 minutes this time, then he began to see things my way. He is the only horse I had to have another person on a 2nd horse help me get him "going" in the round pen. After I had them help me motivate him to the lope that first time, he was golden.

    A total of 33 days(it rained some on me, so I couldn't train him everday) I returned him to his owner.....you coud ride him in the field(he had a 5 or so acre pasture) at the w/t/c with a loose rein. He didn't neck rain, move off of just leg pressure, but I didn't promise that either, and never would in 30 days. He did follow his nose, give his hip when asked, and he was developing a real nice stop...at the w/t/c.

    I have two of my youngsters in training now. On the 3rd ride(5th day of training) we are, you guessed it...w/t/cantering off an easy leg squeeze and cluck.....as a matter of fact, my 17 year old daughter was the first to ride them both at the canter(with me on the ground to help control)....I would not have let her back them if they were unsafe.
         
        10-18-2013, 02:20 AM
      #119
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    And that's why I say to use common sense. If you see a "world champ quality QH" for sale for $300, what will you think. Trainer says "I will have the horse broke in a month w/t/c started on x-rails and trail ridden" then there's some smoke being blown. Coach says "Oh you will be in the WEG next year!!" again, use common sense. None of these things are true. It is up to the consumer/customer/client to choose where to put their money. It's not the trainers fault if they told you they can have the horse doing whatever because they've done it a few times before and it's unrealistic but you put the horse in training anyways. If a trainer told my they could have an untouched horse broke w/t/c in 6 weeks I'd laugh!

    So basically you're saying that if you can find a potential client who is naive enough to fool, you should take that chance and fool them?

    As stated over, and over, and over - I've had colts going w/t/c in less than the time she spent with Atlas. So, I figured that she could do it too. I outlined that I am NOT training him for anything specific, that he just needs to know the basics. I am not aiming for the show ring with him, SHE KNEW THAT. I figured that if I can do it, so can she. She upright said to me that she would have him going w/t/c in 45 days. Even so far as to re-clarify this to me both verbally and via email.

    This thread was not meant to argue about how long it starts to take a horse because obviously we all differ on opinions in that department. The issue is in what a trainer promised via email, verbal conversation, and contract and DID NOT DELIVER. For the money I spent I should have thrown a pack on him and taken him to the bush in the beginning.
         
        10-18-2013, 02:33 AM
      #120
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SnowCowgirl    
    so basically you're saying that if you can find a potential client who is naive enough to fool, you should take that chance and fool them?

    As stated over, and over, and over - I've had colts going w/t/c in less than the time she spent with Atlas. So, I figured that she could do it too. I outlined that I am NOT training him for anything specific, that he just needs to know the basics. I am not aiming for the show ring with him, SHE KNEW THAT. I figured that if I can do it, so can she. She upright said to me that she would have him going w/t/c in 45 days. Even so far as to re-clarify this to me both verbally and via email.

    This thread was not meant to argue about how long it starts to take a horse because obviously we all differ on opinions in that department. The issue is in what a trainer promised via email, verbal conversation, and contract and DID NOT DELIVER. For the money I spent I should have thrown a pack on him and taken him to the bush in the beginning.
    No, my point is as a client, you need to be able to have a reasonable expectation and be able to weed out the bad eggs - regardless of how much they talk. Talk is cheap and many folks build their businesses on it. Anyone who claims to be able to produce unrealistic results is probably blowing smoke. It's being able to recognize this and steer clear of the crazies. Which is difficult, I know, and believe me I've been there. Not trying to justify what the trainer did or didn't say or do (still haven't heard her side of it) but in this market it's buyer beware. Especially for bargain basement price.

    But I'm glad the horse is somewhere now where he will get the time he needs. Good luck!
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    SnowCowgirl likes this.
         

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