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Horse killed at CA's in TX?

This is a discussion on Horse killed at CA's in TX? within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        03-28-2013, 11:21 PM
      #161
    Green Broke
    Here's my .02 (probably more like $5).

    You CANNOT judge somebody fairly if you are not DIRECTLY dealing with the situation. When all info beinggiven is from FB or an internet web site....how are you to know what REALLY HAPPENED??*

    If you don't have the autopsy report, don't have a video surveillance 24/7 on the horse then who are you to judge/condemn someone?

    If I was having veiled insults/accusations thrown at me on public I may retaliate, whether I am a professional figure or not.* He. Is. Human. Just because he is a "proffessional" does not mean he is not dealing with the same stresses as everybody else. He had a horse DIE in His training program. I think that is probably a VERY stressful situation. And getting online to find people trashing you accusing you of abuse, disrespecting and accusing all of your employees and trashing your business would piss anybody off.

    Its not fair to hold one individual to higher standards than you would for ANYONE else. Either you accept that everybody is human, with human emotions and reactions, or NO excuses ever for anybody.


    Now on the flip side, if I was the owner of said deceased horse I would be understandably upset, stressed, and yes probably a little suspicious of all the circumstances leading up to it all. But she made no move to find answers knly went online and raved about it. But I'm sure there may have been mistakes on both parties and the horse for all anybody knows could have had a major health condition causing the death.

    With no autopsy/necropsy done nobody can know.

    The way this probably SHOULD have been handled was an investigation into the horses death and NO word from either until results are found.

    Unfortunately that is not what happened hence all the drama for it all.

    I'm not saying take sides but again, I'm not there seeing the full situation.


    Is CA to blame? Was there foul play? I personally am inclined to think not.
    He offered to pay for the necropsy/autopsy so its not a matter of the owner "not wanting to dish out more money for a dead horse". She wouldn't be paying for it..
    He has numerous employees, many of which are interns, college students etc and I'm sure somewhere word would have gotten out if his training was abusive.

    He offered her a horse worth $25,000, now even if she didn't want a "pony" in her barn she could have sold it for a hefty profit....plus he refunded her entire training fee and offered free training for another horse. Doesn't sound like criminal behavior to me.

    She in turn went online and trashed his reputation, trashed his offers and lost her "trust" for him...I don't see anything untrustworthy in his actions...horses die. Its tragic but it happens.



    End rant.
         
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        03-28-2013, 11:29 PM
      #162
    Trained
    I am fairly certain that CA had the owner sign a waiver about death or injuries to her horse.
    He did not probably have to pay for the autopsy, dispose of the horse, refund her money, or offer her another horse or free training.
    He lives in a ranching area and no jury would side with the horse owner unless she had actual proof of negligence. So all his offers were to satisfy the contract her had with the owner.
    I can understand his frustration and anger at the needless accusations and questions about the safety of his program and training facilities .
    He offered her more than I would have . Shalom
         
        03-28-2013, 11:34 PM
      #163
    Super Moderator
    Trainers kill lots of horses? I have been training for over 40 years with a specialty of retraining rank horses. I have never killed a horse yet....though I've been tempted.....

    I will tell you one thing, however, If a horse died while in my care, and the cause was not obvious it would get a necropsy, period. No vet would ever ask me "is this your horse?" That question has never crossed a vet's lips while dealing with me. I often find myself calling vets for horses that don't belong to me. The horse is cared for first, permission (assuming I can find the owners quickly) from the owner can wait.

    I went to a clients pasture to pull a youngster out that I was working on. I found the poor thing in the pasture with a horribly broken leg. I called my vet and had the horse put down. The vet never questioned me about ownership and I am sure he knew it was not mine. The owner thanked me for not making him suffer, as I knew she would.

    I will not offer an opinion on the owner, although we trainers have all had owners like her. It would NEVER occur to me to ever respond to a similar situation the way CA did. But, then, I would not be tying a horse in any way and leave them unattended.
         
        03-28-2013, 11:37 PM
      #164
    Started
    This is off this discussion, but want to show how quickly things happen and once something starts, the next person says their two cents worth and on and on until nobody knows what the heck is happening.
    Yesterday afternoon Jerry and Ann Moss arrived at Lanes End farm in Kentucky to be with Zenyatta for her foaling. Now, not one person from the farm or the Mosses said anything other than they were at the farm. Within two hours, the rumors started about Zenyatta having her foal. From know it alls, to facebook pages, to whomever wanted to post that they knew what was happening, ALL night long the messages were flying about her having a filly, a grey filly, not a filly, not a grey one, in labor, starting labor, foal in birthcanal, foal up and nursing. Because I did not see a direct message from the Mosses on Zenyatta's facebook page or the forum, I was pretty much not believeing what I was reading. I went to bed, woke up this morning with no foal, BUT a message from the Mosses, stating Zenyatta was doing fine, out in her pasture eating and relaxing.....
    So, because they posted they had made it to Kentucky, the online community went bonkers, talking about her and the foal she was having right at that moment.
    Not one word was the truth, just a bunch of people reading what others wrote and carrying the story one word further, until is was crazy...
    I brought this up because unless a person was there, seeing how the horse died, knowing exactly what was said by who, WHO was there , if the horse was indeed tied out and nobody was watching, its all pure speculation based on what the owner says and what CA wrote to try to end this speculation.
    Sometimes the internet is not exactly truthful in what is posted, unlike the state farm insurance commercial where the girl says" everything on the internet is true, because I read that everything on the internet has to be true....
         
        03-28-2013, 11:44 PM
      #165
    Trained
    Allison I see your point and agree with calling the vet.
    However neither you or I have millions of dollars of endorsments, employees to pay, or sold out clinics to instruct at. Legal matters need to be addressed to avoid and questions about his or his employees conduct. Shalom
    jamesdean57 and CronesHubby like this.
         
        03-29-2013, 12:01 AM
      #166
    Yearling
    This is a quote from her about the hobble issue,

    "No we chose not to necropsy him. It doesn't really matter how he died. We do not plan to sue about his death. So the knowledge of how he died would serve no real purpose. He will laid to rest at the Downunder Ranch. We were told he was hobbled and turned out to graze and two hours later he was found dead. No signs of thrashing (like a colic) but something quick like a heart attack or aneurism. I just hope he didn't suffer. He will be greatly missed."

    I like the fact that CA is showing signs of being a human, not the type to feed you fluff because that's what you want to hear... Him getting a little mad proof that he isn't a robot! :)
         
        03-29-2013, 12:12 AM
      #167
    QOS
    Green Broke
    I have read this entire thread and some people have made some valid points on both sides.

    I read this quote on FB the other day that I believe was from Captain Jack Sparrow on Pirates of the Caribbean of all people! I think it fits this situation.
    The problem isn't the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem.

    His attitude in his message was over the top. I am not a CA fan or detractor - I am totally neutral where he is concerned but after reading what he said I would probably not spend my $$ on his lessons/clinics/products.

    No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. Animals can die for no reason that is true. I am with Allison. Had I been him, I would have paid for the necropsy. This wasn't a clear cut cause like colic or trauma. The horse was left for a few seconds and just "dropped dead". I would have made sure there wasn't a whiff of suspicion in my direction. I don't think he helped his cause with his rant. JMHO
         
        03-29-2013, 01:39 AM
      #168
    Yearling
    Clint Anderson can not win for losing -He is going to go thought this on matter what real happen it is the way of the world -
         
        03-29-2013, 02:23 AM
      #169
    Weanling
    CA should have slept on that online reponse and reconsidered his language and tone, as it does not look good on him as a professional. I think he is going to regret how he reacted to this situation and responded to the situation.
         
        03-29-2013, 02:37 AM
      #170
    Yearling
    I can understand why she didn't have an necropsy. If I sent my horse for training, I probably wouldn't have the money for a necropsy (unless I emptied my emergency funds for vet bills). And even if the trainer was negligent in some way (leaving the horse unsupervised), it would be hard to prove in court. Plus it would be emotionally and financially draining to fight someone as rich as Clinton Anderson. The rich can always afford the best lawyers and appeal it until they win anyway!

    I believe horses are considered livestock so you would only get the value of the animal. Would that be worth the headache?

    None of it changes the fact that the horse is gone.

    The only thing I disliked about Clinton when I saw him at the demonstration is that he was working really out of shape horses for hours at a time until they were lathered with sweat. If you have an undiagnosed health problem and go run a marathon without any prep work you are just asking for issues. Everyone knows that fatigue increases the risk for injury (torn ligaments anyone?). A fixable health problem might not kill your horse if caught early, but if the horse is worked too hard, I bet it could. I've often wondered how many horses at his demonstration end up lame the next day.

    From what I know about Friesians, they are very big horses and prone to heat stroke. The last one I worked with was worked for about 30 minutes before you risked getting him overheated. If you tried to work a horse like that for 3 hours....

    I don't think Clinton can be certain nothing was done wrong on his end either. If he wasn't there, and didn't witness what happened, his student could have messed up and be denying it.

    What I don't like is how disregardful he sounded about the horse's life. He is more angry about everyone's reaction than he is about loosing the horse. If he is getting burned out, than he needs to find a new line of work.

    Plus he gives no disclosure on exactly what happened. Maybe he does have something to hide? "It's none of your business" is not very reassuring!
    QOS, Palomine, GotaDunQH and 4 others like this.
         

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