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Horse killed at CA's in TX?

This is a discussion on Horse killed at CA's in TX? within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        03-29-2013, 08:51 AM
      #181
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Palomine    
    And for whatever reason Texas girl/gal or whatever, you keep posting I shouldn't be writing this or that? What the hell is it to you what I write, or think?

    You want to run CA up a flagpole and salute? Go for it.
    My post to you to be careful accusing someone of threatening another person was a genuine warning. These situations are emotionally charged, but when you resort to using words like "killed" and accuse people of threatening to intimidate, when there has been no proof or even indication of either, you not only make yourself less than credible, you set yourself up for a lawsuit.

    You can be less than credible all you want, I just hate to see someone set themselves up for trouble over an emotional situation that doesn't even involve them.

    That's all. It was sincere.

    Oh, and I've already stated that I'm not a CA follower. I'm more of a firewoman and recognize firestarters.

    I would say that I'll wait for the facts, but I don't think we'll ever know them.
         
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        03-29-2013, 09:40 AM
      #182
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Maple    
    I don't see why he should give details of what actually happened. I completely agree with him that it is nobody's business, because it isn't. What happens with any horse in his care is between himself and the owner... why inform a person in another state/country what is happening - they aren't paying the training fees.
    In a situation this extreme, meaning the death of an animal for undisclosed reasons, it is the business of every single person who considers sending a horse to his program for training. They deserve to know the truth about what really happened, or how can they be sure it WASN't just an accident, and not something that might happen to their horse as well? His response was far from reassuring to anyone who might use his services in the future. In fact, I'd wager he drove away a good bit of business by shooting off at the mouth before he thought about the results.
         
        03-29-2013, 09:55 AM
      #183
    Started
    Hmm, I think everyone should read about the program that the link was posted. What the owner wrote goes in direct conflict of the pre boot camp instructions. Makes me think there is alot more questionable truth of the story from the owner, wonder what else she is withholding: from the owners own words: I've been getting him ready by cutting way back on his feed and hay. And he is slimming down and his naughty energy is a tiny bit reduced yet, this is directly from the Academy information page:"While we ask that you don’t work with your horse prior to training, to best ensure he leaves the ranch in good weight, we encourage you to generously feed him before dropping him off at the ranch. Due to the program’s intensity, it is best if the horse is fleshy and a little fat coming into the program. If you’ve underfed your horse and he’s skinny, he’ll have a much harder time gaining weight while in training. Remember, horses are worked six days a week, for at least two hours a day. While your horse will certainly be fed a high quality forage and grain, he’ll burn a lot of calories during training. If the horse comes into the program a little fat, by the end of the 6-week course, he’ll have a perfect body condition score and be in good weight."


    Hmm, maybe the owner needs to be more truthful, since she obviously did something before she even sent the horse away... Maybe she knows more than she is saying, maybe she knows exactly what happened, but the real truth doesn't make for good reading or "feel sorry for me" information.
    As I stated before, I don't have anything for or against CA.. Trainers train based on what works for them. I feel his letter, though a bit "hot" is his right. Plus, it was posted on HIS page, he has the right to write as he wants.But in typical "feeding frenzy" on the internet and different forums, even his letter is being judged. The conversation between the owner and CA was between them and if it had been left between them all this would be a moot point. But, the owner chose to keep the "frenzy" going by her posts and CA or any trainer has the right to say what he/she needs to to inform the public Frenzy Feeders his side.
         
        03-29-2013, 10:59 AM
      #184
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wyominggrandma    
    hmm, I think everyone should read about the program that the link was posted. What the owner wrote goes in direct conflict of the pre boot camp instructions. Makes me think there is alot more questionable truth of the story from the owner, wonder what else she is withholding: from the owners own words: I've been getting him ready by cutting way back on his feed and hay. And he is slimming down and his naughty energy is a tiny bit reduced yet, this is directly from the Academy information page:"While we ask that you donít work with your horse prior to training, to best ensure he leaves the ranch in good weight, we encourage you to generously feed him before dropping him off at the ranch. Due to the programís intensity, it is best if the horse is fleshy and a little fat coming into the program. If youíve underfed your horse and heís skinny, heíll have a much harder time gaining weight while in training. Remember, horses are worked six days a week, for at least two hours a day. While your horse will certainly be fed a high quality forage and grain, heíll burn a lot of calories during training. If the horse comes into the program a little fat, by the end of the 6-week course, heíll have a perfect body condition score and be in good weight."


    Hmm, maybe the owner needs to be more truthful, since she obviously did something before she even sent the horse away... Maybe she knows more than she is saying, maybe she knows exactly what happened, but the real truth doesn't make for good reading or "feel sorry for me" information.
    As I stated before, I don't have anything for or against CA.. Trainers train based on what works for them. I feel his letter, though a bit "hot" is his right. Plus, it was posted on HIS page, he has the right to write as he wants.But in typical "feeding frenzy" on the internet and different forums, even his letter is being judged. The conversation between the owner and CA was between them and if it had been left between them all this would be a moot point. But, the owner chose to keep the "frenzy" going by her posts and CA or any trainer has the right to say what he/she needs to to inform the public Frenzy Feeders his side.

    Well, this just shows that there's way more to the story that the general public will ever know. However, the nature of the general public is to speculate . This is just how our brains work--when there's information missing, our brains want, or even need, to fill in the blanks.
         
        03-29-2013, 11:02 AM
      #185
    Trained
    I have no personal experience with CA. Never seen a video, tv show or been to a clinic. I have read a few articles the man has written.
    So I can honestly say I don't want to run the man up a flagpole and salute him.
    Calling a horse facility a concentration camp run by a madman is highly offensive to this grandson of a Holocaust survivor. Working a horse for 2 hours a day in no way equals the brutal slave labour endured by the victims of those camps.
    I have sent a few horses to professional trainers and each time I have signed a waiver in case of injury or death of the horse.
    If CA did not shut his facility down for a day of mourning, shed tears, or offer the lady the keys to the facility to ease her grief.... so what.
    He has the ability to trash her reputation far more than she can his.
    In fact his handling of the situation, tone of his letter, generous offers, and refusal to take legaln action against these accusations has peaked my interest in the mans methods. Positiviely I might add.
    I can understand why some may be taken aback by his approach . These colourful metaphors and vieled accusations though have no credibilty. Shalom
         
        03-29-2013, 11:10 AM
      #186
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by horselessmom    
    It seems strange to me to judge one's horsemanship based on one's FB design. I don't even see her site as "fluff." It is artistic. Different perceptions, I guess.

    I think the problem for horse people with the owner's fb page is that art and writing is all about dream space and how things might be. Kind of wishful thinking. And all the costumes and dreams of the Medieval era reflect more of the same. And the Medieval era in a romantic sense, not the bloody gory place it really was.

    People who clean stalls see the very earthy side of things.

    Also, most horse people are very down to earth because it is dangerous not to be. Horses are best dealt with in a very realistic way, which is why people are saying over and over that they are NOT dogs and it is dangerous to anthropomorphise them.

    And don't forget that the owner sent her horse to CA BECAUSE he was becoming dangerous.

    (I should point out that I know little about CA and his methods. Most of my knowledge about horses comes from doing and hands on instruction.)
         
        03-29-2013, 11:22 AM
      #187
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Palomine    
    And more than likely he threatened owner too, with being sued.
    What do you personally have against CA? Because it seems like everything you've put in this thread is a direct attack against him or at least insinuating unsubstantiated negatives about him.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        03-29-2013, 11:23 AM
      #188
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by apachiedragon    
    In a situation this extreme, meaning the death of an animal for undisclosed reasons, it is the business of every single person who considers sending a horse to his program for training. They deserve to know the truth about what really happened, or how can they be sure it WASN't just an accident, and not something that might happen to their horse as well? His response was far from reassuring to anyone who might use his services in the future. In fact, I'd wager he drove away a good bit of business by shooting off at the mouth before he thought about the results.
    Unless there is a publicized blog, video or other means of media about the on going training of the animal and the incident it is none of our business. Why should I feel some sense of entitlement to be apart of somebody else's life? Could you imagine the uproar is somebody called and asked about the progress of another client's horse and he told them? An owner would be livid. Can you imagine walking up to a trainer and saying "I heard Flicka died, I was thinking of sending a horse here so you must tell me what happened". The trainer would tell you where to shove it. Just because society wants to be nosey and involved in something that has zero to do with them, it does not give them that right.

    Trainers of all makes will get good and bad reviews. It is a part of the process - some people like the way things are done, some don't. You can't please anybody.
         
        03-29-2013, 11:40 AM
      #189
    Started
    Does CA take regular horses in for training, or just this "boot camp" stuff? I always thought the point of his "program" (I hate that word used with horses, almost as much as I hate the word "frame") was that average horsepeople could work with their own problem horses. Seems to me to contradict his other teachings. If the horse got two+ hours WORK at home, it may not need boot camp, but I could be wrong, of course.

    Just a rambling thought. Also seems like for the welfare of all those $25,000 horses on his place, he would have wanted to know what killed the horse, and if he had thought to put it that way to miss faeriehorse, maybe avoided a lot of this. Hindsight is 20\20.
         
        03-29-2013, 11:59 AM
      #190
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum    
    What do you personally have against CA? Because it seems like everything you've put in this thread is a direct attack against him or at least insinuating unsubstantiated negatives about him.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    I have also wondered that. According to her, CA is obviously at fault, no way could an accident happened. She is just quoting the owners information. Maybe she is a friend of the owner? Maybe she is one of the "feeding frenzy" folks I was talking about. Drama drama drama

    The way I see it, what happened is between CA and the owner. Nobody elses business. What happened is between them, not the internet, not all the nosy folks who demand to be told. Here is an example:someone brings their animal to the vet clinic. The animal dies during surgery for something.The DR and the owner discuss what happened and the probability of why. (possible reaction to anesthetic as an example, heart attack, etc) Owner doesn't want autopsy, even at Dr expense. So, case is closed. Or so DR thinks. But pretty soon his name is being spread all over as a bad vet, quack, animal killer, etc. Hmm, seems owner got on facebook, says her animal died and then the "feeding frenzy" folks get involved and the internet goes wild. Well, so and so had this happen at this DR's clinic. So and so says the vet dropped the dog on the floor before surgery. So and so says the dog died in its cage and didn't even have surgery. And the list goes on and on.
    Remember the game "telephone" You sit in a big circle and whisper a word in the next person's ear? By the time it gets around the circle, the word turns into something totally different. Everyone has the right to defend themselves, especially against the internet nosybodies.
    Anyone can say what they want, can say this particular trainer is bad, abusive, cruel, horses die with him, etc... don't send your horse there because he is cruel, yadda yadda.
    It is nobody's business.. The horse is dead for whatever reason. Maybe she starved him so badly his system shut down. Animals that have feed withheld "so his naughty ways calm down" might not have been able to handle the work started on him, even though it is directly written to feed the animals "up" so they carry a bit more weight to begin the program.
    I think there is alot more truth to this story than the owner is willing to admit. What we hear is her version and speculation by the internet "feeding frenzy" to keep it going.
         

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