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Nevzorov

This is a discussion on Nevzorov within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Nevzorov horse
  • Horse bite

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    02-02-2013, 10:28 AM
  #81
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mylady    
While I agree with his ideology on not using bit or any form of pain or discomfort inflicting tack
Not to start the whole discussion on using bits again, but bit does NOT cause the pain or discomfort if fitted and used correctly (and horse doesn't have issues with the mouth like, say, rubs in the corners).

As for Nevzorov I don't have a respect for the person who is afraid to share the training methods with the crowd, and who doesn't allow any comments/critique if you disagree with something he does. That's a sign of the bad horsemanship IMO.
     
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    02-02-2013, 10:51 AM
  #82
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Not to start the whole discussion on using bits again, but bit does NOT cause the pain or discomfort if fitted and used correctly (and horse doesn't have issues with the mouth like, say, rubs in the corners).

As for Nevzorov I don't have a respect for the person who is afraid to share the training methods with the crowd, and who doesn't allow any comments/critique if you disagree with something he does. That's a sign of the bad horsemanship IMO.
Actually there are tonnes of veterinary research suggesting that bit DOES inflict pain and discomfort to horses mouth and there is no such thing as "correctly fitted" bit. Just as there is no research that suggests "absolutely " that there is no pain from it. So this is upto individual horse owners. I used to be a "traditional" rider I changed because that's what I believe is right for me and my horses. It is an individual choice.

And returning to the topic I hope that soon someone will expose the real deal behind Nevzorov's system - it is only fair for people around the world to know the truth.
     
    02-02-2013, 10:55 AM
  #83
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mylady    
Actually there are tonnes of veterinary research suggesting that bit DOES inflict pain and discomfort to horses mouth and there is no such thing as "correctly fitted" bit...
Please share a few pounds of the tons of scientific research.
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    02-02-2013, 11:06 AM
  #84
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
Please share a few pounds of the tons of scientific research.
This is a good summary of general study.
NAGtrader - Dr Cook's Bitless Bridle - Why Horses Hate the Bit

Some more:

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/EQ_RESEARCH.pdf

".....Dr Cook evaluated the bit with regard to the principles of equine physiology and his
Previous studies of the applied anatomy of the upper airway (see bibliography
Below). “The focus of my research”, he said, “has been the head, neck and chest
Of the horse, so my recent study of the bit’s effect on equine physiology
Represents a continuation of a life-long interest in this region.” Among other
Investigations, he ‘scoped three bitted horses at rest and during treadmill
Exercise, noting the airway obstruction caused by bit-induced tongue and jaw
Movement. Cook also ran exercise trials with four "roarers," first with a bit in their
Mouth and then with the bitless bridle, noting the lessening of the noise or even
Its elimination when the bit was removed.
At the Natural History Museum (Smithsonian) and the Museum of Comparative
Zoology (Harvard University), Cook surveyed 48 skulls from horses that were 5
Years old or older for evidence of bone spurs on the mandible caused by the bit.
He compared these with 20 mature zebra skulls. None of the zebra skulls
Showed any abnormality on the bony ‘bars’ of the mouth. Five Przewalski horses
That had died in the National Zoological Park and eight feral horses from
Assateague Island also showed no abnormality, as one might have expected.
But of the remaining 35 horse skulls, bone spurs on the bars of the mandible
Were present in 26 (74%). The famous Thoroughbred racehorse LEXINGTON
Was one of the 26. A few skulls also had bone spurs on the maxilla......"
     
    02-02-2013, 11:24 AM
  #85
Super Moderator
^^ Dr. Cook is promoting his bitless bridle, so no wonder you find it on their website. I do not see a single reference in that pdf you posted to the paper written by someone else. All "references" are to the papers by Cook (some with collaborators). In a true scientific world (not sure if veterinary is considered as one) it proves nothing BTW.

And just to add to it. I did talk to Bitless Bridle people in person (at the Expo where they had a demonstration/selling booth), and guess what? They said it does NOT work for every horse.
     
    02-02-2013, 11:50 AM
  #86
Trained
Somehow I'm not surprised that Dr Cook was brought up. However, his 'research' doesn't say bits cause pain. ANYTHING in the mouth will at least somewhat interfere with breathing thru the mouth, but my horses don't normally breath thu their mouths.

Look at these race horses. See any of them breathing thru their mouth? I don't!



If a bit caused pain, I'd never get on in my mare's mouth. The gelding might put up with it, but my mare wouldn't.

BTW - I rode my horses for 3 years bitless. I tried a crossunder style bitless bridle on them, and they didn't like it. At all. They all act calmer and more relaxed with a bit than bitless, although I sometimes ride them bitless still - in low tension settings.

While I don't approve of my daughter dropping her stirrups, does her horse look like a horse in pain?



Does Mia look like she is in pain, as she pulls on one of the reins?

     
    02-02-2013, 12:23 PM
  #87
Foal
Well first of all Dr Cook invented his bridle AFTER an extensive and careful research. And there are other researches apart from Dr Cook ( I will try to find them in English). All vets make money from their work - Dr Cook spent his life researching horses mouth and then developed a more humane bridle. Why is that so bad?

Cooks bridle does not suit every horse just like there are different types of conventional bridles to suit individual horses. For example I have used "Side pull" bridles on some horses and it worked better than Cook's.

I am not a follower of any particular bitless bridle - I try, learn and adjust according to individual horse's needs and problems. But I do believe in scientific research by qualified vets and doctors that spend their lives in research I just believe that sticking a piece of metal into anybody's mouth is cruel and unnecessary. Many horses I worked with had completely changed for better since going bitless but that's my experience.

Didn't I say in one of my previous posts that going bitless is an individual choice? It is up to you to decide what's best for your horse.

And what has this got to do with the original topic? The question was about Nevzorov and what we thought of him NOT should the horse go bitless or not.
     
    02-02-2013, 12:24 PM
  #88
Weanling
Subbing, I like this thread...pretty interesting :)
     
    02-02-2013, 12:28 PM
  #89
Trained
OK, my opinion on Nevzorov: He's nuttier than Dr Cook. Here is one of my litmus tests for horsemanship: If an author says bits are about pain, they are too ignorant to pay attention to. And when someone wants to teach their horses Latin, they are full-blown wacko nutjobs.
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    02-02-2013, 12:44 PM
  #90
Yearling
I've been told the same thing with bits and that they interfere with the horse's breathing. However I heard that from a Myler DVD and not from Dr. Cook.

Since horses can't physically breath through their mouths, the only way it can do so is the fact that there is something in a horse's mouth which is probably hard for it to swallow, as many know. But I still can't see how that interferes with breathing. Until somebody, not Dr. Cook, tells me scientifically how a horse can't breath well with a bit I will continue to think that its just a way for a person to sell their product.

Like bsms has previously stated, some horses do better in bits than in a bitless bridle. If I'm correct, isn't your Arabian calmer in a bit than a bitless bridle? All horses are different, like different things, etc.

I've ridden my filly in a bitless bridle, halter, Myler (level 1 snaffle), and all of these other things. She rides the same, nothing changed. So frankly, I don't see the point in changing from bit to bitless. To be, a bit is just for asking a horse to get supple, soft, and collected and not for control. I will continue to ride my filly in a bit as when I show, but if I just did trail riding then I would pop in a bitless bridle. Simply because, like I've stated before, bits to me are for suppleness and collection. I don't think I can get my horse collected well in a bitless bridle, but if I did just trail riding then it wouldn't really matter, as long as she's soft in the bitless I'll be fine with it.

The fact that Nevzorov keeps his horses isolated just tells me that he has NO CLUE about horses and their natural ways. He claims that he is natural and that he trains from the soul.



Because this is what happens with you 'train from the soul'. Horses don't train through the soul, they alpha of the heard trains others through his/her body language. And if she has to bite them, then so be it the horse has to move out of the way. I feel that Nevzorov just thinks that training horses is like flying around with a magical wand and not to be the alpha in the relationship because 'I want to be one with the horse.' Again, very unnatural. There is no such thing as 'being one' in the world of horses. Your either the leader or your one below your horse, which is what I think of this guy. There even is a video of his horse biting him, actually I've seen a couple of his horses biting him.

The fact that he doesn't teach his students anything when he works with horses just suggest that he has some black magic going on in that stable. If he truly wanted to help the horses he would be putting up all of his videos and teaching each and every person on how to handle their horses the way he does. And like a previous poster has said, that's very selfish.

He's a guy off his rocker. No wonder why he doesn't ride his horses anymore. Maybe because one of his horses bucked him off and bonked him in the head a bit more and thought, "Oh dear, I'm getting a message hall horses must not like being ridden!!"
kitten_Val, smrobs, bsms and 1 others like this.
     

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