Parelli or Clinton Anderson? - Page 11
 
 

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Parelli or Clinton Anderson?

This is a discussion on Parelli or Clinton Anderson? within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Clinton anderson pro slaughter
  • Pat parelli stallion.france abuse

View Poll Results: Parelli or Clinton Anderson
Parelli 9 12.68%
Clinton Anderson 42 59.15%
other (if so comment who) 20 28.17%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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    01-20-2013, 12:56 PM
  #101
Trained
We don't have rattlesnakes here so its a non issue.

I can't imagine wanting my horse to stop. Especially if I was showing. Pretty much anything I can think of that would spook her she could navigate. Yes, she might hesitate, but she shouldnt stop.

At the last event I was at the cross country course was full of halloween decorations. It was also 15 degrees F, sleeting, with high winds. There was plenty to spook at, and believe me, gypsy looked at a lot. But when it came down to it, she never once stopped, she maintained her gait and thought forward all the time. If she hesitated to told her to go and that it was fine, and she believed me.

I guess its probably the difference between a trail rider and a show rider. We require different things out of our horses. Although I have no different requirements on the trail.
     
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    01-20-2013, 01:05 PM
  #102
Trained
Guess we differ. If we're both getting what we want out of our horses, that's OK!
     
    01-20-2013, 01:05 PM
  #103
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
My horses prefer a higher ratio of human control. If they have 49%, they could go to 50.1% pretty easily, and that makes them tense. They act happier if they believe they don't have any decisions to make.

I would retaliate if my horse bit me. I'd not just back them out of my space, I'd have them wanting to leave the planet! And if I chose to spare their life, then we could go back to normal.

But I'm a nobody, and my horses aren't anything to boast about. YMMV.
Even with a 51% human, 49% horse relationship does not mean that my horses would not like to sometimes try it on and alpha over me, but when you have gained that 51/49 it's not that hard to maintain if the ratio gets much wider it won't be fun for either of you!

Even so, my horses still have their responsibilities and can make decisions (I don't want a robot ) his quick thinking might be needed to get us out of a tricky spot one day.
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    01-20-2013, 03:28 PM
  #104
Super Moderator
Given its a choice of the two then I'd have to say CA - though I wouldn't hang on his every word - he does seem to be more of a 'what you see is what you get' guy and makes no secret of the fact that he does get tough with horses and his horses do work better for him than PP's ever seem to do - and all the tricks - what is the real practical point in all of that? Why not get a poodle?
Beats me why novices don't just buy a good grounded schoolmaster, spend time around good trainers, learn about management, handling horses, how to ride properly and save themselves a lot of hassle. You learn the ropes and then move on to the green horses if you want too
     
    01-20-2013, 03:48 PM
  #105
Foal
Yes, I had a CA trainer run my horse around the round pen. It was about 5 years ago before I knew the first thing about ANY natural horsemanship trainers. I also hired a John Lyons certified trainer and that also failed. And I love JL!

As for Catwalk - I remember when that whole deal was hashed out for about 70 pages on a different horse forum. What I got from that conversation is that that video is the ONLY one that exists of that event, and the quality is terrible so you can't even really see what's going on.

Also, the owner of Catwalk basically stated that the horse is very extreme, he's dangerous, and his extreme resistance to bridling has never been able to be fixed, or even improved by anybody. Medical testing, training, lots of different equipment - nothing would help that horse get over it. Pat did use an extreme approach for an extreme situation. This was a stallion who had picked up a dangerous habit and Parelli was trying to break the horse's fight habit once and for all.

Back when that was all the hoopty hoo on the forums, I had no knowledge of Parelli whatsoever. I had no connection to the Parelli program, and didn't give a hoot about natural horsemanship. I saw the terrible quality video, read all the comments, saw the follow up videos with the vet and the horse's owner, read the 70 whatever pages of conversation, and the conclusion I came to was that Pat Parelli was asked to try to fix a very dangerous and extreme behavior on a breeding, racing stallion. He had to go to extreme measures to try to break the horse's dangerous behavior. Having a leg tied up, and a gum line in place is a heck of a lot kinder than ending up on a slaughter truck headed for France because the stallion was too dangerous to keep around! My opinion on that situation basically has not changed.

When Pat worked with my mare, he also went to some extreme measures. He actually kicked her in the gutt once, but that was because he went through about 10 levels of pressure prior to that, and she just KEPT running over the top of him and would not respect his space whatsoever. He didn't chase her down and kick her, but when she came at him, he sure flung the toe of his boot up there and defended his space. I would have done the same. You can NOT allow a horse to run you down. You just can't. It's dangerous. He tried using the stick, the rope, a stick with the bag on the end, and she would NOT stop running over the top of him. She was so strung out on adrenaline, I honestly don't even think she knew he was there. He HAD to get through to her somehow. I was at the end of the line with this mare. I tried everything. I have owned, raised, ridden, shown, and trained a lot of horses and I have never EVER encountered one so dominant and hot as this one. When something trips her off, she can be dangerous. Pat had to peel back the layers of her behavioral problems and get to the root cause.

But what CA did to that poor colt at RTTH 2011 was outright abuse because this was an untouched, wild colt and CA basically treated him like a rank, dangerous stallion. He wasn't. He was just a colt totally innocent and ignorant. He had no baggage or bad habits or problems. But because he was a huge colt, and very athletic, CA went into that round pen with the intention of wearing him down and breaking him mentally because he knew that was the only way he'd win.
     
    01-20-2013, 04:04 PM
  #106
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padrona    
But what CA did to that poor colt at RTTH 2011 was outright abuse because this was an untouched, wild colt and CA basically treated him like a rank, dangerous stallion. He wasn't. He was just a colt totally innocent and ignorant. He had no baggage or bad habits or problems. But because he was a huge colt, and very athletic, CA went into that round pen with the intention of wearing him down and breaking him mentally because he knew that was the only way he'd win.
I have not seen this clip - do you have one available to view? The only one I found was him running the horse around bridleless or something and ran into the wall. That was the extent of that one.

That being said; all trainers have a moment of complete idiocy that someone catches on camera.

Heck, I dropped my sister-in-law's Arabian on the ground the old fashioned way because she was to the point I could not get her to pay attention to me and was being dangerous.

Would I do that again? No... but it's easier to tell someone to walk away from a frustrated situation than it is to actually walk from one..
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    01-20-2013, 04:23 PM
  #107
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hang on Fi    
I have not seen this clip - do you have one available to view? The only one I found was him running the horse around bridleless or something and ran into the wall. That was the extent of that one.

That being said; all trainers have a moment of complete idiocy that someone catches on camera.

Heck, I dropped my sister-in-law's Arabian on the ground the old fashioned way because she was to the point I could not get her to pay attention to me and was being dangerous.

Would I do that again? No... but it's easier to tell someone to walk away from a frustrated situation than it is to actually walk from one..
I can try to find something and post it. I watched the full length DVDs, so I'm not aware of any you tube clips. A person really needs to see the whole 5+ hours of the entire competition to see everything CA does from start to finish. Yes, anyone can be caught at a bad moment, but this was 5 hours of "bad moments" for CA in that competition. That horse never got one moment of relief. I was honestly shocked that the competition organizers didn't step in and tell him to cool his jets with that poor colt.

In the first segment they are required to give the horse 30 minutes of rest, and it cannot be taken all at the end. The announcer had to REMIND CA to give his horse a break, or he wasn't going to be in compliance with the rules. Parelli and Cox kept giving the horse a few minutes here and there to think and process something they were taught. CA just would.not.quit.

I put my DVD player on slow motion and watched in detail a segment about 5 minutes long where CA yanked and jerked that horse around so hard he was actually rearing, striking out, teeth bared, mouth gaped wide open, and nearly flipping over backwards. This is a BABY horse. No experience with humans other than 1 week of halter breaking as a weanling, and then turned out in a field and untouched for 3 years. Then he shows up in CA's round pen and gets ruined.

Trying to fix a bad, dangerous problem horse is one thing. I get that sometimes you do have to go to some extreme measures. Horsemanship isn't always beautiful and subtle. Horses beat the crap out of each other and deliver dangerous kicks and bites. Sometimes they break bones on each other. So if a human has to run a gum line or kick a horse in the gutt ocassionally because they are so entrenched in their dangerous behavior, they're going to hurt someone, then ok. That's better than somebody getting hurt!

But when you just attack a 3 yr old colt like that for no reason, that is abuse and is completely unacceptable in my opinion. During that whole competition, CA could hardly catch his breath. He was wringing wet with sweat and panting into his microphone because he was so exhausted from running, chasing, flapping, slapping, jerking, etc... Parelli never lost his breath or shed a bead of sweat, and Chris Cox was somewhere in between the two of them.
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    01-20-2013, 04:30 PM
  #108
Weanling
Ah, they were DVD's, makes sense why I couldn't find it.

Don't get the wrong impression by my post, I wasn't defending him (or any trainer) sometimes our emotions get the better of us and we end up doing something we regret that shows incompetence versus control. I certainly don't condone what he did, but because I haven't seen it... I can't really say.

I don't care for natural horsemanship, period. Just because the hype that goes with it and the half-bum attempts to train their horses the "natural" way. It kills me when someone is afraid to push a horse around when they're a feeble 80lbs to this 800-1000lb animal only because they're hurting themselves not helping their horse.

I believe there should be a happy medium of a firm hand and an understanding mind to make a sound horse.

I do see what you're saying though.
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    01-20-2013, 07:35 PM
  #109
Banned
I encourage my students to look at all trainers. You can learn something from them all.
     
    01-20-2013, 09:20 PM
  #110
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsygirl    
we don't have rattlesnakes here so its a non issue.

I can't imagine wanting my horse to stop. Especially if I was showing. Pretty much anything I can think of that would spook her she could navigate. Yes, she might hesitate, but she shouldnt stop.

I guess its probably the difference between a trail rider and a show rider. We require different things out of our horses. Although I have no different requirements on the trail.
I don't think you are grasping the entire concept that bsms is getting at. What he's saying is that the horse's first response on their own should be to stop and wait for instructions before reacting to a stimuli, whatever it may be. The thing is, there is such a learning curve about what the response should be to an individual stimuli. Plus, a good rider can give direction in almost the same instant as the horse begins to react. On an older, more trained horse, I can see what they are spooking at as soon as I feel them tense...and react just as quickly. So, I can either choose to stop, turn, or urge the horse on before they get the chance to fully stop or, often, even change gait.

There is a partnership going on there and if you have a good horse, you should be able to trust their judgment too. So, when my horses are old enough and trained enough that I have started to trust them to think for themselves a bit, then I start accepting their advice in the direction we're going.

For example, just a few years ago, I wanted to cross a creek. My horse, Dobe, was very hesitant and was basically saying in big neon letters "There's something wrong, I don't want to go that way", where before, he never hesitated at any water crossing. I ignored him because I was in a hurry and pushed him to go ahead. He went, but I soon wished I hadn't asked because he ended up bogged completely down and it took about a half hour and another saddle horse with a rope to get him out.

So you see, there is a bit of give and take. Where I ride, a horse that spooks and moves can get themselves or you seriously hurt or killed, depending on the situation. Therefore, for our own safety and for theirs, it is safer if a horse's first instinct is to stop and ask you want to do instead of deciding on their own which way to go.
     

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