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Parelli Horsenalities

This is a discussion on Parelli Horsenalities within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        12-02-2012, 05:08 PM
      #71
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by justicehorse    
    I think parelli went too far with charts and categories for marketing sake, but the information is good.
    I think this exact quote is Parelli's issue with everything - and many other big name trainers too. The information, the foundation, the skills are all well founded intelligent ideas. But they're taken to a marketing extreme which attracts many, but repels many more. This over marketing leads to a loss of valuable information, which is unfortunate. It also leaves it subject to personal opinions - as seen by this forum, 30+ people can read the Horsenality page and see 40 different things. Information like this needs to be thoroughly explained, even studied by the reader, not mass produced in 'simple easy to understand' ways, that really don't teach you the solid facts behind the concepts.
    These big name trainers try to mass produce their styles with the idea of 'follow these simple steps and you too can be a trainer!' but the 'simple steps' require more than a little actual understanding of how and why the methods work, how and why horsenalities actually matter. So unfortunately his marketing did him more of a disservice than anything.

    Sorry if I repeated anything someone's already said.
    GotaDunQH, jaydee and AceIsHigh like this.
         
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        12-03-2012, 07:06 AM
      #72
    Foal
    If you just look at the horsenality chart and conclude that this is the main information about horsenality I would agree that it is insufficient knowledge. In fact there is a video pack with 14 hours of DVDs which take you by the hand reading horse behaviour, both classroom lectures and just watching, real time, horse behaviour. It can be a bit like watching paint dry, but was very valuable to me. I could sit at home in comfort and see horse behaviour occurring with expert commentary on top. This does NOT compare with years of experience watching and playing with real horses, of course not. What it did do was give me a primer lesson so I did not spend years not even noticing subtle cues from horses. I could see things happening which without this knowledge I would have just missed, from that foundation experience could be built much faster.
    There is also a huge amount of online information on the Parelli website about this topic, but then of course you have to pay to see this. Digital access is $9.99 a month, and the first 30 days is free. Not exactly exorbitant but you can watch the whole level one pack online. (Bit upset about that to be honest, as I bought the DVD pack :( )

    For those who think that Parelli is a video training program I would have to disagree. They do have DVDs of course, but they are just for homework. Real knowledge comes from the instructors, who, having all been trained by Parelli, at least all speak about the same language, but with personal styles. Personally I liked James Roberts teaching style, it was tough, fun and fair. But I have lessons with others to, in fact I am having one from one of Pats apprentices tomorrow :) .
    I also agree that it is a mistake to think that you can use a box set of DVDs to become a horse trainer. Pat suggests that you need to be a minimum of Level 3 to even think of training a young horse, and then only under supervision.

    I think it may also interest folks as to where the horsenality idea originated. When Linda first married Pat and travelled on his road shows with him she would see him work with different horses at each show stop. And each time he did things differently being the natural horseman he is. Of course she could badger him with questions as to why he did one thing with one horse and something else with another. Slowly she began to see a pattern. According to her she suddenly got inspiration at 3 in the morning and dashed downstairs to write it down. She was so excited that she took Pat coffee early in the morning, who just insisted on drinking the coffee in peace first before he looked at anything. When he did finally look at the prototype chart he just said "Yup, that's about right" and thought it no big deal. I guess for him it was all obvious and did not need writing down, but for his student Linda, it gave her a knew way to look at horses and start to gain experience.
    That is how I think about the folks on this forum. There are those for whom it is all innately obvious and doesn't need writing down and is thus just marketing hype to make money off the gullible. They probably can't even remember the time when they were groping in the dark to understand behaviour, and what a bewildering place it can be.
    For others it is a place to start the path to experience from, without wandering around for years in the dark before we start to notice patterns in horse behaviour ourselves. If it accelerates the progress of these folks so that they can enjoy being around their horses and maybe even be a little safer I can only say it is a good thing. It certainly provided this function for me.
    Do I think of the horsenality in analytic terms these days. When I'm with the horse, mostly not. When I'm reviewing, or planning a session then often yes. That probably means I am part way along the path of reading horses naturally. Could I have got to this point without the training from Parelli over the last 3 years ? Almost certainly not.
         
        12-05-2012, 02:58 PM
      #73
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PunksTank    
    I think this exact quote is Parelli's issue with everything - and many other big name trainers too. The information, the foundation, the skills are all well founded intelligent ideas. But they're taken to a marketing extreme which attracts many, but repels many more. This over marketing leads to a loss of valuable information, which is unfortunate. It also leaves it subject to personal opinions - as seen by this forum, 30+ people can read the Horsenality page and see 40 different things. Information like this needs to be thoroughly explained, even studied by the reader, not mass produced in 'simple easy to understand' ways, that really don't teach you the solid facts behind the concepts.
    These big name trainers try to mass produce their styles with the idea of 'follow these simple steps and you too can be a trainer!' but the 'simple steps' require more than a little actual understanding of how and why the methods work, how and why horsenalities actually matter. So unfortunately his marketing did him more of a disservice than anything.

    Sorry if I repeated anything someone's already said.
    Love this post....best one on here is you ask me. First off, I am not a PP or LP fan at all and I won't turn it into a bash fest, but will explain why because it IS founded in facts. He teaches nothing about correct riding and he himself is not a great rider. He may have been around for a while, but so have I.....51 years in the business. Yes, the marketing turns me off big time, but there is also some hypocrisy with PP and LP....ESPECIALLY when their previous views of Dressage were a thumbs down. Now LP claims to be an expert and has actually put all across the internet...that SHE has unlocked the secret to getting a horse "on the bit". It's laughable.

    As for horsenalities thing, one more cutesy thing for the PP system. Yes, horses have "personalities", but if you hang around with them long enough...you can pretty much figure them out. But because PP puts his name on it, it becomes this big deal. All of the left brain, right brain...I'm not buying it as the way he explains it....sorry.
    jaydee likes this.
         
        12-05-2012, 05:35 PM
      #74
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GotaDunQH    
    As for horsenalities thing, one more cutesy thing for the PP system. Yes, horses have "personalities", but if you hang around with them long enough...you can pretty much figure them out. But because PP puts his name on it, it becomes this big deal. All of the left brain, right brain...I'm not buying it as the way he explains it....sorry.
    That's the point. If you hang around them long enough you will learn it all by experience. I am 49 years old, I don't have 51 years to learn. What I need is a resource which will let me know what to look for rather sooner than that.

    I suspect you'll say that you can only learn by experience, and I think that is probably the best way to learn. But what would you do if you knew that you only had a certain number of years of gaining experience left, and by the time you had gained it you would be too old to use it ?

    If you have this much experience then please please write it all down, make videos of it and set up an instructors school. Then those of us coming back to horses late in life can learn from that experience, plus our own hard work in studying, to get at least half way to where you are now. Or should we just give up on our dream to be safe and have fun with horses because we are too old ?

    Maybe I should have stayed in horses when I was younger, but I had such an acute allergy that I could not even get in my wife's car. It is only since new ways were invented to control that allergy that I could go back to my love of horses. This has left me with an extreme experience deficit and I find that the Parelli system, plus others, goes a long way to helping me overcome that deficit. Not all the way I'll grant you, nothing beats real experience.

    I also agree that the horsenality chart is not all that is required to understand this topic. That is why there is a 14 hour dvd pack on the subject, a huge amount of info on the website, and every Parelli instructor will help you asses your own horse. It is a huge subject that I can quite believe would take 51 years to absorb without intense tuition, but the resources for that tuition are there to help you short cut it to say 20 years
    bsms and Fargosgirl like this.
         
        12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
      #75
    Super Moderator
    You are never to old to learn and I have total admiration for anyone who takes up horses later in life because you just don't see the dangers so much when you're young
    But that has nothing to do with 'having a feel for horses' and I don't think its something anyone could teach you either.
    14 hours of PP DVDs - I think I'd have lost the will to live never mind ride!!!
    I worked with horses and hung out on yards and we bred and brought on horses ourselves and yes - you do get attached to some more than others which is really tough when they are there to be sold. I have stood crying many times when a special one went BUT each horse had to be cared for as well as the next, each one had to perform to its absolute best regardless of its personality, it doesnt take years of experience to see what they best relate too. I think you are over-thinking a lot of things and creating issues that done exist - all good for the bank balances of PP and his sort.
    I am all for people having hands on tuition on basic things and on going riding but a lot of this seems like a step too far for anyone
    I was really quite young when I was switching from one type of pony to another and still having to understand them so I can't help but struggle to see the need for all the hype.
    Maybe you need to spend less time stressing about all this personality stuff and just relax and spend time with your horses, enjoy them, get to know them, stop trying to psychoanalyse everything they do because half the time they don't even know themselves why they do things.
    GotaDunQH likes this.
         
        12-05-2012, 06:23 PM
      #76
    Yearling
    ^awesome post! People tend to overthink the way HORSES think...way too much.
    christopher likes this.
         
        12-05-2012, 06:49 PM
      #77
    Foal
    I do analyse things a great deal as for me it is a path to greater feel. My instructor James memorably said "do your thinking at night and your feeling during the day" and that is how I tend to operate. I suspect many others do as well, it depends on your personality. But then I shouldn't analyse that too much here as after all people are only people and should be treated on the forum as such and not over analysed

    By profession I am a pilot. I have learnt an awful lot about aerodynamics, structures, engines, law, aircraft systems etc etc. All this knowledge is required by law for me to keep my airplane and passengers safe. Some of it I am tested on every 6 months for 2 days in a simulator.

    Do I have this knowledge at the front of my mind landing a Boeing 767 in a 30 mph cross wind onto a short runway. Of course not. I just have to feel the airplane and the wind when I do that, but all that knowledge is lurking there in the background informing my feel and letting me know where the boundaries are that should not be crossed. In moments like that the aircraft and weather really feel like living beings.

    I have found the same when I play with horses. I don't think about what horsenality is in front of me much these days, but the background knowledge this information gives me enables my "feel" to be more acute and fun. I don't think about which of the 7 games I am playing, but again they inform the "feel" of what I do.

    I also study the martial art Aikido. We practise the individual moves very slowly and precisely, looking at how a move effects the opponents balance. Of course this is not how you would fight, but these slow motion practises are vital to you being able to perform the correct moves under pressure. In a way that is like the early practise of the 7 games, once you know them well enough to do them without thinking they enable you to be more effective.

    I have therefore learned that so long as you gain knowledge with this idea of how to eventually use it in mind, then it is rarely wrong to gain as much knowledge as you can from whatever sources are available. For me Parelli has a large part of the foundation picture, though I tend to agree with your comments about dressage.

    Pat himself says to follow the program to level 4 and then find a specialist instructor in your desired sport to train you further. And, to be honest, level 4 is where I am heading at the moment, and then I'll look around for instructors in my chosen sports probably from outside Parelli.

    And who says I'm stressing about this horsenality stuff, for me its' fascinating
    tinyliny and christopher like this.
         
        12-05-2012, 08:09 PM
      #78
    Trained
    I think a few people have an innate feel for horses. Many more learn horses like they learn a language when young. Dick Francis is best known as a mystery writer, but he was also a top jockey and he told people starting at 16 that they would never equal someone of the same talent who started at 5.

    But in 4+ years around horses, I have learned some. Not enough to train a horse, and barely enough (if that!) to deal with my somewhat eccentric mare in daily riding. I have no use for LBI/RBE classifications, but since I started at 50 and was an F-4/F-111 WSO/EWO, I can fully understand how such a diagram could help someone learn more about horses faster than they would without. I prefer terms like fearful, submissive, imaginative, etc - those clarify things for ME. If the Parelli diagrams help someone else, well...I've got several shelves filled with books on horses, most of which didn't help me at all. I can't complain if someone spends money and actually gets something in return.

    My only caution is that a person can absorb that sort of stuff and still be overhorsed. The trainer I hired has a lifetime with horses, and even she would regularly look at Mia & mutter, "What are you thinking?" It keeps me from feeling so bad when I'm confused by her too!

    Happily, Mia is like a great many other horses in that she is a forgiving and giving soul. She knows I mean her well and that covers a multitude of sins. If she could talk, I'm sure she would sometimes say, "You aren't very bright, but we'll keep plugging away until you catch on..."
    GotaDunQH likes this.
         
        12-05-2012, 08:23 PM
      #79
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    I think a few people have an innate feel for horses. Many more learn horses like they learn a language when young. Dick Francis is best known as a mystery writer, but he was also a top jockey and he told people starting at 16 that they would never equal someone of the same talent who started at 5.

    But in 4+ years around horses, I have learned some. Not enough to train a horse, and barely enough (if that!) to deal with my somewhat eccentric mare in daily riding. I have no use for LBI/RBE classifications, but since I started at 50 and was an F-4/F-111 WSO/EWO, I can fully understand how such a diagram could help someone learn more about horses faster than they would without. I prefer terms like fearful, submissive, imaginative, etc - those clarify things for ME. If the Parelli diagrams help someone else, well...I've got several shelves filled with books on horses, most of which didn't help me at all. I can't complain if someone spends money and actually gets something in return.

    My only caution is that a person can absorb that sort of stuff and still be overhorsed. The trainer I hired has a lifetime with horses, and even she would regularly look at Mia & mutter, "What are you thinking?" It keeps me from feeling so bad when I'm confused by her too!

    Happily, Mia is like a great many other horses in that she is a forgiving and giving soul. She knows I mean her well and that covers a multitude of sins. If she could talk, I'm sure she would sometimes say, "You aren't very bright, but we'll keep plugging away until you catch on..."
    Those two comments there pretty much sum up a lot of the root of some peoples problems and why they need someone like PP
    1 They start off with the wrong horse in the first place believing it all to far easier than it is - or they are better than they actually are
    2. They don't chose a horse that is basically forgiving - and actually most horses are and many are totally idiot proof which is why there arent that many cries for help on these forums in ratio to the number of people who own horses
    bsms, GotaDunQH and Nokotaheaven like this.
         
        12-05-2012, 08:46 PM
      #80
    Green Broke
    Horses have personalities and characteristics that vary as much as our own do. They can be classified into left brain extrovert/introvert, right brain extrovert/introvert, but none are completely one thing. It's like saying I am totally Introverted because I have more introverted characteristics than I do extrovert. But truth is, I'm not. I think, on this topic there is a video everyone should maybe watch. It's pointed at people, but I'd say to fully understand a horse we have to understand ourselves
    The Power of Introverts - Ep 1 - YouTube
    Fargosgirl likes this.
         

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