Pat or Clint

nrhareiner · 02-01-2013, 05:52 PM

I look at the DVDs like I do my tools. I do a lot of carpentry. I like to build things. To me DVDs to not teach me to train they just add tools to my tool box. It is like when I go out and buy a new saw. Yes I can cut wood with my circular saw but a compound miter works better. These tools do not teach me to build but they help me do the work needed to build what I want.

Same with these DVDs. They should not be used to teach you to train a horse but simply as tools to make it easier. I look at trainers like PP as framing carpenters. Yes they can build but it is all rough work. I look at trainers like Shawn as Finish carpenters. They have the skills needed to get the fine work done and do the finishing touches. Yes a finish carpenter can build anything from a rough framing but them can also go the extra mile and do the finish work to make it all look really really good and easy. Now a good framing carpenter can make the finish carpenters work easier and a bad one can make the work harder. I look at PP as a bad framing carpenter that makes the finish carpenters work harder.

BBBCrone · 02-01-2013, 10:23 PM

Dang did this thread get set on fire ;)

About Clinton Anderson - Now this is coming from ME not my hubby LOL. Hubby usually will say it's not me when he posts but I think sometimes he forgets. He seriously needs to get his own sign in name.

Anyway, on CA, he's okay. There's things I don't necessarily agree with. This "sensitize/desensitize" thing every time you turn around is puzzling to me. I also don't like to use a whip/stick/whatever you call it every single time I do something with my horse. There's times I will use it, times I won't. I don't like to be locked into a certain way.

I will say, he's helped my hubby understand things I can't necessarily explain. I think that's a particular key to his success. He has a way of explaining something that makes sense to people who are struggling with a concept.

I'm not a big fan of "learning by DVD" AT all. But, in the absence of a trainer, I guess it's better than nothing. I know that when hubby is ready, I'll teach him what I can and then pass him off to a trainer where he can take lessons and get a better understanding and get pushed farther than my own knowledge. In fact we'll BOTH probably go because all those little things I've forgotten over the years I'll have to re-learn anyway.

tinyliny · 02-02-2013, 12:24 AM

I think Bsms made a good point; that videos showing riding would be better for beginners , as opposed to videos for training. Beginners shouldn't really be training in the first place.

However, beginners do need to know how to do the basics of handling their horse safely and without worsening his ground manners. I think that in theory, that's what PP started out trying to do; make horse handling divisible into set skills. It does help a beginner to teach them how to back their horse, or send it arounmd or through a tight place . All of those skills would come into play when taking a horse through a gate, for example. Just having some ability to handle a leadrope is a skill a beginner has to learn. They don't come born being able to do that.

A lot of people get that far and no farther. They aren't horse people. They don't have the kind of life situation that nrharainer or Wanstrom have; horses and more horse all around them and growing up with horses and horse people and mentors gallore. They will never compete. They just want someone to quantify what they need to learn to have at least some better control/relationship with their hobby horse.

And, ya know, that's cool. It's better than blundering around with no help.

So, some go on, learn more and may find that PP's teachings don't cover the width and the breadth of what you need to consider to be a trainer. Then they might change their opinion, and might look farther for more knowledge. But, the got a start.

So, though I am NO pro, no where near as experienced as many riders here, and I can agree with a LOT of what is said about PP producing some problem horses, I will also say that he has helped a lot of horse owners. Just not in the same sphere as those that are here now saying he is a bad rider and they would n't let him on their horse's back and that someday, you'll understand. Try to understand the situation of the hobby horseowner, too. They aren't ready for all that you know. Not yet. And may not likely ever get there. I know I won't .

Wanstrom Horses · 02-02-2013, 12:39 AM

You made a good point there Tiny. I guess in my area, you hardly ever see a hobby horse owner. We all work on horse back. Heck, my hubby rode ponies for the first ten years of his life to the bus stop every day. And it is something that makes me opinion very strong when it comes to DVD clinicians. I guess, in my own opinion and experiences, I see a lot of things in their methods that go against everything I was ever taught about horses. My dad grew up ranching, my mom was a racehorse jockey, my grandpa was a notorious horse trader, my uncle made an honest living training bridle horses, my husband is fourth generation cowboy, and I guess that's all stuff I take for granted. I've never looked at things from another's point of view until I joined this forum. Honestly, I've never been on a trail ride where I wasn't trailing cattle or checking fence or packing salt. I don't understand the hobby horse lifestyle. And I guess that may be something I need to take into consideration when strongly stating my opinion.. But still, I don't like PP.

tinyliny · 02-02-2013, 01:17 AM

Well, I've never lived with horse/cattle working people. I would have dearly , dearly loved to, but this was not the life I got borned into.

I think it's good for some of the beginners to hear what more advanced persons think of PP, ,but sometimes, folks need things that are made for them, where they are NOW. In time, they might see different.

And, there are some people who achieve great results with Parelli.

I try to stay open minded when one of my dearest friends talks about her excitement in learning new things, or going to some Parelli clinic. But, I still find it hard to be comfortable with what I see going on with Parelli practicing hobby horse owners (lots of them around here).

But, if I hadn't stumbled into the trainer that I have now, I would not know what I was missing.

Padrona · 02-02-2013, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinyliny

I bet if you asked Pat, he would admit to not being the best rider. He rides better than I do. I am not shy to admit that.

Anyway, the original question here was Pat or Clint. We haven't heard much about Clint. Anyone?

My opinion is that Clinton Anderson is a bully. I have never seen ONE interaction between CA and a horse that was positive. The horses always look terrified, they are panting and sweating, they are nervous, and they are looking for an ESCAPE AWAY FROM HIM. That's his whole training platform - terrify and exhaust the horse to the point he just does whatever you are forcing him to do just so you'll leave him alone and let him rest. CA's method treats the horse more like a piece of farm machinery than a sentinent being.

I think many people love CA because his heavy handed comandeering type of training is more in line with classical, traditional horsemanship, than with natural horsemanship. If the horse doesn't respond to what you want - just get out a bigger bit! Get a bigger whip and lash him with it harder. Put on a die down. Put a bicycle chain over the nose. Snub him to a post and let him fight until he falls down. That is the type of horsemanship that most people embrace, for reasons unknown to me.

This month's Horse and Rider magazine has an article on what to do if your horse won't stad for shots for the vet. The short term solutions are twitch, lip chain, sedation, snubbed up to a post..... The only truly KIND and compassionate of those options is sedation. If your horse MUST be vaccinated TODAY for whatever reason, have the vet throw some Ace granuals in the feed, then slip the shot in once he's groggy. But the fact that lip chains and twitches are even used in horse training in the year 2013 is mind boggling to me. Yeah yeah I know all about the "endorphin release" and getting a dangerous horse under control....I still don't agree that some of these harsh techniques are necessary.

So most people see nothing wrong with CA because his techniques fall in line mostly with that old fashioned mentality that a horse is nothing but a hunk of hide and hair to be dominated and wrestled into submission.

You asked.

Everyone hates Parelli here, so maybe I'll use Buck Brannaman instead as an example....he is firm and determined without ever getting his own heart rate up. He doesn't chase horses around the round pen or get himself worked into a lathered up tizzy chasing the horse with lariats. He asks for the horse's respect with a sort of quiet, calm, gentle demeanor.

Mark Rashid talks about the difference in LEAD horses, and DOMINANT horses. Lead horses have that calm, confident temperament that makes members of the herd WANT to follow their authority. The lead horses can direct members of the herd with the slighest flick of an ear. The lead horses in a herd are the strong pillars that reinforce their position only if directly physically challenged. But otherwise, they do not chase or stir up trouble in the herd. Dominant horses are the ones running around stirring up trouble. They are constantly busy. They are always moving, and nit picking other herd members. They create fights and beat other horses into submission with physical force. Dominant horses move a foot and everybody scatters in fear of getting kicked or charged.

I have a great example of these two types in my own small herd. I have a mare who is a dominant bully. She has to live alone because she will NOT allow other herd members to have peace! She constantly walks around, pushing them out, demanding they move, and is never satisified with what lower ranking herd members are doing. If they are standing over there, then SHE has to go stand over tere and make them move. If they move over here, then SHE has to go stand over here and make them move. If somebody is drinking from the tank, she'll run right over there and demand they get out and leave. She would be the one to inflict physical damage on other horses.

A gelding that I used to board for a lady was the perfect example of a lead horse. He could stand there like a statue and the herd would move around him. He never chased, charged, or kicked and bit anyone! He could give them a look and they would move their feet. His owner said he's always been number one wherever he was boarded, but it's so weird because he rarely DOES anything! He just stands there and the other horses have total respect for him. But he's a lead horse, versus being a dominant horse. Dominant horses don't necessarily gain respect from herd members. Herd members might FEAR them, but that's not the same as respect.

CA behaves like a dominant horse. Buck behaves like a lead horse. Same end result but ENTIRELY different path and journey to arrive there. Buck leaves the horse's dignity intact and Clinton breaks the horse down mentally. Buck creates a partner. Clinton creates a machine that goes through the motions.

CA is so busy running around, chasing the horse, driving him, throwing lariats, jumping in front of his flight path, jerking on te lead, throwing his arms up in the air....CA is in a lathered sweat, and so is the horse at the end of darned near every interaction he has with a horse.

Buck has that quiet, leadership deameanor. He gets into the horse's brain without anybody breaking a sweat. He can stand still and get more done with a horse than Clinton accomplishes running 5 miles around a round pen.

gypsygirl · 02-02-2013, 08:23 AM

LOL mark rashid ? Really ? He cannot ride to save his life and is a horse murderer !

HorseCrazyTeen · 02-02-2013, 08:29 AM

I do not agree with Padrona, lets just say, but I'm not going to get into it.

But in any case I have one of Mark Rashid's books, and I really like it. I'm not sure what the horse murderer comment is all about... Now I have to admit I have not actually seen him ride, so if he is a bad rider like Pat someone please correct me.

gypsygirl · 02-02-2013, 08:37 AM

He starved some draft horses to death. I would never let him near my horse.

nrhareiner · 02-02-2013, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padrona

My opinion is that Clinton Anderson is a bully. I have never seen ONE interaction between CA and a horse that was positive. The horses always look terrified, they are panting and sweating, they are nervous, and they are looking for an ESCAPE AWAY FROM HIM. That's his whole training platform - terrify and exhaust the horse to the point he just does whatever you are forcing him to do just so you'll leave him alone and let him rest. CA's method treats the horse more like a piece of farm machinery than a sentinent being.

I think many people love CA because his heavy handed comandeering type of training is more in line with classical, traditional horsemanship, than with natural horsemanship.
Do not care for CA any more then I do PP. Also what you are seeing is not 100% correct. Will not get into that now.

If the horse doesn't respond to what you want - just get out a bigger bit! Get a bigger whip and lash him with it harder. Put on a die down. Put a bicycle chain over the nose. Snub him to a post and let him fight until he falls down. That is the type of horsemanship that most people embrace, for reasons unknown to me.

See this is where you do not quite get it. 99% of the trainers I know and use are not HN and yet they use a lot of NH principles as they have been around for longer then any of up. Yet they do NON OF this. It is called proper training by trainers who know what they are doing and have proven they know.

This month's Horse and Rider magazine has an article on what to do if your horse won't stad for shots for the vet. The short term solutions are twitch, lip chain, sedation, snubbed up to a post..... The only truly KIND and compassionate of those options is sedation.

This is a lack of training from day one. All my foals have learned from day one to have emotional control and to stand still when asked. That translates to under saddle work latter. As for using these things. I had an old mare who LOVED a twitch. She would literally put her lip into the twitch when I would take it out. She would not stand still until you put it on her if you needed to do feet. She was good about being vac and de wormed as they did not take long enough to get what she was after. She knew and she wanted that twitch. Sedation can be dangerous. That is 100% my last resort. There are just too many things that can go wrong especially with stallions.

If your horse MUST be vaccinated TODAY for whatever reason, have the vet throw some Ace granuals in the feed, then slip the shot in once he's groggy.
Will never use ACE for any reason. It is not a safe drug to give a horse even worse for some breeds of dogs. Again this comes down to training. Had a Poco Bueno G-D who when I got her at about 20 years old had never been touched past being pulled out of the 1000+ acre paster at weaning time to be vaccinated and her feet and teeth done. When I got her you had to heard her into and out of her stall. Leave a halter on and yes traq. Her to do anything that involved touching her. Took me about a month or 2 and I could catch her anywhere put a halter on her and pick up all 4 feet. I did not use 1 PP or any other NH method. Teaching a horse to do what is needed it not hard.

But the fact that lip chains and twitches are even used in horse training in the year 2013 is mind boggling to me. Yeah yeah I know all about the "endorphin release" and getting a dangerous horse under control....I still don't agree that some of these harsh techniques are necessary.
Use a chain my my stallion at breeding time. You REALLY want to try and control a stallion when you are under then collecting them with out one? I can lead this stallion through a herd of mares with nothing but a lead rope around his neck. However he has a special halter and the chain goes over his nose he knows it is breeding time. You really need to learn that just like bits and spurs these are tools. When used properly have there place and it has nothing to do with pain.
So most people see nothing wrong with CA because his techniques fall in line mostly with that old fashioned mentality that a horse is nothing but a hunk of hide and hair to be dominated and wrestled into submission.

You asked.

Everyone hates Parelli here, so maybe I'll use Buck Brannaman instead as an example....he is firm and determined without ever getting his own heart rate up. He doesn't chase horses around the round pen or get himself worked into a lathered up tizzy chasing the horse with lariats. He asks for the horse's respect with a sort of quiet, calm, gentle demeanor.

Mark Rashid talks about the difference in LEAD horses, and DOMINANT horses. Lead horses have that calm, confident temperament that makes members of the herd WANT to follow their authority. The lead horses can direct members of the herd with the slighest flick of an ear. The lead horses in a herd are the strong pillars that reinforce their position only if directly physically challenged. But otherwise, they do not chase or stir up trouble in the herd. Dominant horses are the ones running around stirring up trouble. They are constantly busy. They are always moving, and nit picking other herd members. They create fights and beat other horses into submission with physical force. Dominant horses move a foot and everybody scatters in fear of getting kicked or charged.

I have a great example of these two types in my own small herd. I have a mare who is a dominant bully. She has to live alone because she will NOT allow other herd members to have peace! She constantly walks around, pushing them out, demanding they move, and is never satisified with what lower ranking herd members are doing. If they are standing over there, then SHE has to go stand over tere and make them move. If they move over here, then SHE has to go stand over here and make them move. If somebody is drinking from the tank, she'll run right over there and demand they get out and leave. She would be the one to inflict physical damage on other horses.

I have a mare who use to be like this. Normal for her breeding. Most Dun It mares are very pushy mares. With good training she now lives with 3-4 other mares with little trouble. When she starts to cause a problem I let her know she is NOT in charge. I AM. All I have to do is yell her name and she will stop. She still lets them know she is next in the pecking order but she no longer chases them over and through fences and so on.

A gelding that I used to board for a lady was the perfect example of a lead horse. He could stand there like a statue and the herd would move around him. He never chased, charged, or kicked and bit anyone! He could give them a look and they would move their feet. His owner said he's always been number one wherever he was boarded, but it's so weird because he rarely DOES anything! He just stands there and the other horses have total respect for him. But he's a lead horse, versus being a dominant horse. Dominant horses don't necessarily gain respect from herd members. Herd members might FEAR them, but that's not the same as respect.

You can tern your mare into this gelding if you really under stood what was going on. Have done it with several mares over the years.

CA behaves like a dominant horse. Buck behaves like a lead horse. Same end result but ENTIRELY different path and journey to arrive there. Buck leaves the horse's dignity intact and Clinton breaks the horse down mentally. Buck creates a partner. Clinton creates a machine that goes through the motions.

CA is so busy running around, chasing the horse, driving him, throwing lariats, jumping in front of his flight path, jerking on te lead, throwing his arms up in the air....CA is in a lathered sweat, and so is the horse at the end of darned near every interaction he has with a horse.

Buck has that quiet, leadership deameanor. He gets into the horse's brain without anybody breaking a sweat. He can stand still and get more done with a horse than Clinton accomplishes running 5 miles around a round pen.

At times you much be both the leader and dominant. It just depends on the hose and the situation.

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