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Pat or Clint

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    02-05-2013, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by gypsygirl    
i don't know of any, I didnt find this info online.

Someone I know used to work with him and with PP when they were all younger. Mark and my friend worked together at the time this happened.
Oh I see. Well, if that's true - and I'm not questioning you - than that's just dispicable. BUT either way, he has good training methods and ideas, imo. I love the book of his that I own and he has an interesting, engaging way of writing. I'll take what I like from him.
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    02-05-2013, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
How about a good proven trainer that you can go take lessons with and can actually watch you ride and either train you horse or help you train your horse. Much better way to go and much much better for the horse.
when my horse was an unbroke 3yo I didnt have someone to help me on a regular basis. Watching CA dvds on ground work helped me greatly to get my horse ready to ride. She went from not knowing how to lead to w/t/c undersaddle in 35 days, with no trainer but me. I have not backed a horse myself before her and im not a professional and this was a pretty big accomplishment for me. I now have a great horse due to my hard work and commitment, but we wouldnt be where we are now if not for CA. People at my barn are either the backyard type or the DQ type. Neither of these types are known for good ground training [no offence to backyard ppl or dressage queens, just my personal experience] in 2 weeks my horse was better on the ground than anyone elses.
HorseCrazyTeen likes this.
    02-05-2013, 09:44 PM
CA has helped me so much, also. He is a really great people trainer.
    02-05-2013, 09:46 PM
I agree. It is important to find someone who will help you with your horse and your own skills. I personally don't like takeing a horse in training unless I am working with the human too. I insist on teaching the humans the grounwork and having them have a total understanding of the horse. The horse is going to learn quicker than the human and everyone needs to be on the same page. Going to Buck's clinics and watching his videos can really help you. There is a new video out called 7 Clinics With Buck. It is just like being at a clinic in your livingroom. Well worth the money and will help you advance your horsemanship knowledge. Buck has been my mentor for 21 years. He teaches what is suiting for the horse and keeps the human safe. I went to an equine school for 3 years and always felt something was missing from my program and when I met Buck I knew what is was. The connection, respect and understanding that can be created between the horse and human. But research any trainer you work with to make sure they are teaching what you are interesed in learning for yourself and your horse.
    02-06-2013, 01:03 PM
Well my horse was a total kicking machine then I trained him using PP stuff and he is perfect soooo that tells you that pat's stuff works too
Nokotaheaven likes this.
    02-06-2013, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by nikyplushbreyer    
well my horse was a total kicking machine then I trained him using PP stuff and he is perfect soooo that tells you that pat's stuff works too
Ya when I got Mia at 4 months old she was a "kicking machine" too. Fixed it in 2 hours with out PP, CA or any other running around. Kicking is not a hard fix 98% of the time.

It is not PP or any other trainers "Program" that works. It is simply working with a horse that has problems the correct way. My problem with PP and CA and a lot of the others past the marketing is the fact that they try and sell you on a "Program" You do not need a program you just need the "Tools" If you get some of those "Tools" from PP or CA fine. However past that....
NdAppy, Jolly Badger, bsms and 4 others like this.
    02-07-2013, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Padrona    
My opinion is that Clinton Anderson is a bully. I have never seen ONE interaction between CA and a horse that was positive. The horses always look terrified, they are panting and sweating, they are nervous, and they are looking for an ESCAPE AWAY FROM HIM. That's his whole training platform - terrify and exhaust the horse to the point he just does whatever you are forcing him to do just so you'll leave him alone and let him rest. CA's method treats the horse more like a piece of farm machinery than a sentinent being.

I think many people love CA because his heavy handed comandeering type of training is more in line with classical, traditional horsemanship, than with natural horsemanship. If the horse doesn't respond to what you want - just get out a bigger bit! Get a bigger whip and lash him with it harder. Put on a die down. Put a bicycle chain over the nose. Snub him to a post and let him fight until he falls down. That is the type of horsemanship that most people embrace, for reasons unknown to me.

Getting a bigger bit or whipping a horse is not necessarily "traditional" horsemanship!
Yes, there are times a horse needs his ass spanked whether it be traditional or natural, but knowing how much and when
is the key to it being effective rather than creating other issues.

This month's Horse and Rider magazine has an article on what to do if your horse won't stad for shots for the vet. The short term solutions are twitch, lip chain, sedation, snubbed up to a post..... The only truly KIND and compassionate of those options is sedation. If your horse MUST be vaccinated TODAY for whatever reason, have the vet throw some Ace granuals in the feed, then slip the shot in once he's groggy. But the fact that lip chains and twitches are even used in horse training in the year 2013 is mind boggling to me. Yeah yeah I know all about the "endorphin release" and getting a dangerous horse under control....I still don't agree that some of these harsh techniques are necessary.

Twitching is not traumatic or abusive if done correctly. I have not had to twitch a horse for several years but I do keep one on hand. And I always rub the mouth and lips before/afterwards to ensure the is not "mouth shy". Ace-ing a horse is no different than twitching or or using a gum-line. Both Ace-ing and twitching are a short fix to get a necessary job done when training has been lacking.
For me, I have found cupping the eye so the horse can not see the needle/syringe
and forehead tapping enough to distract the mind has been the most effective for horses that may be a little needle soured.

So most people see nothing wrong with CA because his techniques fall in line mostly with that old fashioned mentality that a horse is nothing but a hunk of hide and hair to be dominated and wrestled into submission.

You asked.

Everyone hates Parelli here, so maybe I'll use Buck Brannaman instead as an example....he is firm and determined without ever getting his own heart rate up. He doesn't chase horses around the round pen or get himself worked into a lathered up tizzy chasing the horse with lariats. He asks for the horse's respect with a sort of quiet, calm, gentle demeanor.

Mark Rashid talks about the difference in LEAD horses, and DOMINANT horses. Lead horses have that calm, confident temperament that makes members of the herd WANT to follow their authority. The lead horses can direct members of the herd with the slighest flick of an ear. The lead horses in a herd are the strong pillars that reinforce their position only if directly physically challenged. But otherwise, they do not chase or stir up trouble in the herd. Dominant horses are the ones running around stirring up trouble. They are constantly busy. They are always moving, and nit picking other herd members. They create fights and beat other horses into submission with physical force. Dominant horses move a foot and everybody scatters in fear of getting kicked or charged.

I have a great example of these two types in my own small herd. I have a mare who is a dominant bully. She has to live alone because she will NOT allow other herd members to have peace! She constantly walks around, pushing them out, demanding they move, and is never satisified with what lower ranking herd members are doing. If they are standing over there, then SHE has to go stand over tere and make them move. If they move over here, then SHE has to go stand over here and make them move. If somebody is drinking from the tank, she'll run right over there and demand they get out and leave. She would be the one to inflict physical damage on other horses.

A gelding that I used to board for a lady was the perfect example of a lead horse. He could stand there like a statue and the herd would move around him. He never chased, charged, or kicked and bit anyone! He could give them a look and they would move their feet. His owner said he's always been number one wherever he was boarded, but it's so weird because he rarely DOES anything! He just stands there and the other horses have total respect for him. But he's a lead horse, versus being a dominant horse. Dominant horses don't necessarily gain respect from herd members. Herd members might FEAR them, but that's not the same as respect.

CA behaves like a dominant horse. Buck behaves like a lead horse. Same end result but ENTIRELY different path and journey to arrive there. Buck leaves the horse's dignity intact and Clinton breaks the horse down mentally. Buck creates a partner. Clinton creates a machine that goes through the motions.

CA is so busy running around, chasing the horse, driving him, throwing lariats, jumping in front of his flight path, jerking on te lead, throwing his arms up in the air....CA is in a lathered sweat, and so is the horse at the end of darned near every interaction he has with a horse.

Buck has that quiet, leadership deameanor. He gets into the horse's brain without anybody breaking a sweat. He can stand still and get more done with a horse than Clinton accomplishes running 5 miles around a round pen.
I am not a fan of Clinton Anderson either.
To me he looks like a bull in a china shop, even with his more broke horses. And I am really tired of the over flexing.
I have tried watching his stuff and was completely irritated when I heard him explain basically(from what I gathered) that he likes to over exaggerate his cues so if things get heated or things are working fast the horse does not get worried.
Of course a horse should be well trained and be accepting of cues but it is our responsibility as the rider to stay out of the horses way and be as subtle as possible. If a horse has been trained correctly, accepts and understands but over reacts to a cue then that should tell me to tone it down- I over cued
! I do not need to desensitize my horse even more to just ignore my over cueing. That just seems plain ignorant to me.
Padrona likes this.
    02-07-2013, 11:12 PM
^^^ I realise what you are saying, and I agree with you, but do remember he said to over cue in the beginning, and get more and more subtle over time. And it is depending on how the individual horse responds. Not to just keep on over cueing no matter what. Notice him ride his trained horses--he doesn't over cue.
    02-07-2013, 11:42 PM
    02-07-2013, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by HorseCrazyTeen    
^^^ I realise what you are saying, and I agree with you, but do remember he said to over cue in the beginning, and get more and more subtle over time. And it is depending on how the individual horse responds. Not to just keep on over cueing no matter what. Notice him ride his trained horses--he doesn't over cue.
I do understand that.
Cueing should be done only to the the extent that the horse understands not to to the point where he is oversensitized to the riders mistakes.

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