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Pat or Clint

28K views 244 replies 50 participants last post by  dknatura 
#1 ·
who would you choose to train your horse with you personally i would say pat especially since he doesn't bad words to my horse
 
#75 ·
Riding western for a year does not in anyway qualify you to discern one rider from another in terms of ability. Please elaborate what TYPE of western riding you were doing, because there is oceans of difference between many if not all western disciplines. Heck some people say they ride 'western' just because they've plopped their behind in a western saddle.
 
#80 ·
#81 ·
Ok. Why can't we all just agree to disagree here? That's all I want. We all know something about riding, but we all learned it from different people and likely learned slightly different methods. I am a western rider, but I have ridden english and bareback (which i prefer), and I've jumped both in english and bareback. I have trained and assisted training horses, so I know what I do and how I ride works just fine for what I do.
What I pay attention to when I see people ride is not how they ride, I pay attention to how the horse reacts to the way it's being ridden. I watch shows and see all these horses with their ears back, heads up or tucked too far under, and a upset look in their eyes.. But the most tell-tale sign I see is the annoyed switching of the tail when asked to do something.
The only issue I have with showing that in reining horses is to me a lot of them look like they have gone introverted. But watch this video, watch the horse's head movements (minor ones) and how much the rider is pulling on the reins. Also watch the ears when they ask him to pick up the pace in the lope, this horse was upset.. Also I just watched some reining videos, I can easily say they were on the reins at least as much as Pat was and were using harsher bits as well
 
#87 ·
Ok. Why can't we all just agree to disagree here? That's all I want. We all know something about riding, but we all learned it from different people and likely learned slightly different methods. I am a western rider, but I have ridden english and bareback (which i prefer), and I've jumped both in english and bareback. I have trained and assisted training horses, so I know what I do and how I ride works just fine for what I do.
What I pay attention to when I see people ride is not how they ride, I pay attention to how the horse reacts to the way it's being ridden. I watch shows and see all these horses with their ears back, heads up or tucked too far under, and a upset look in their eyes.. But the most tell-tale sign I see is the annoyed switching of the tail when asked to do something.
The only issue I have with showing that in reining horses is to me a lot of them look like they have gone introverted. But watch this video, watch the horse's head movements (minor ones) and how much the rider is pulling on the reins. Also watch the ears when they ask him to pick up the pace in the lope, this horse was upset.. Also I just watched some reining videos, I can easily say they were on the reins at least as much as Pat was and were using harsher bits as well
Finally Dunit Great - YouTube
Love how you picked a horse I personally know. I was there when he was still sucking on his dam. Watched him grown up. Nice horse not really an open level horse.

He was not being pulled around in the turns. His ears where back listening to the rider they where not pinned. Bit heavy on the stop but this horse while a nice stopper needs at this point with this rider needs a bit of help. Over all for a non pro rider that was a very nice run. Score it very well. Very light and giving and again very responsive.
 
#83 ·
Harsher bits? Do you have X-ray vision and can see inside the horses mouth? Really this is ridiculous.
 
#84 · (Edited by Moderator)
Having differing opinions and stating WHY they have those opinions does not make other peoples posts worthy of reporting.

None of the adults have been rude or used name calling. Unfortunately, I can't say that for some of the younger posters.

If you post something on an open forum asking for opinions, you're going to get ones you don't like. That's the way it works. If all you want is agreement, maybe start a private group and only invite those people whose opinions dovetail with your own.
 
#89 ·
Wow, well this thread took off like wildfire.. Just caught up with it and it made me laugh quite a bit :D Nakotaheaven, that video you posted of Finally Dunnit Great, just proved that PP is a bad rider, so your arguement is invalid. That guy is not in his horse's face at all. Notice he is using ONE hand. In the video that I posted earlier in the thread, Pat is yanking Magic into a spin with twi hands using a shanked bit. NOT acceptable. And look at that video of Pat and Magic, with her mouth yanked open and tossing her head to get away from the bit, if that horse looked happy!! I want a horse to lay his ears back when I'm cueing him, it means he's paying attention to me. And harsher bit?? There is no such thing as a harsher bit, only more advanced. Tell me exactly what bit they are using in that video. Because my eyes just aren't that great.
Anyways, I can see, argueing with children will get us nowhere. Once you PP followers advance in your riding and training skills, I'm sure that Pat Parelli will no longer "walk on water"...
 
#94 ·
Also.. What I mean by harsher is it can deffinitely do more damage than other bits if not used correctly or overused.
Again, I'm saying a difference of opinion is okay, I respect your guys thoughts and opinions.. But saying someone can't do this or that then feeling the need to state why you're right and everyone else is wrong isn't.. I've only been asking for you to stop picking on Pat..
Now, I won't be on all weekend, maybe this weekend I'll get to see my horse one last time before she is very likely sold... I don't know how I am going to cope without her..
But anyways, just one last little thing before I leave this thread... A good horseman, and a good rider, you can be both... But there is a difference between the two. A good rider knows how to sit well in his seat and give cues and commands well... Well a good horseman knows how a horse is feeling and what it's thinking, he is less likely to be suprised by the unexpected, because he expected the unexpected and was prepared to fix it. He knows what happens before what happens happens.
It is possible to be both, it is also possible to lack in one or the other. But it doesn't make you a bad person, which I feel that you guys are making him really sound like
 
#96 ·
But anyways, just one last little thing before I leave this thread... A good horseman, and a good rider, you can be both... But there is a difference between the two. A good rider knows how to sit well in his seat and give cues and commands well... Well a good horseman knows how a horse is feeling and what it's thinking, he is less likely to be suprised by the unexpected, because he expected the unexpected and was prepared to fix it. He knows what happens before what happens happens.


Sure then that just shows how bad PP truly is. Being he is the ONLY rider to ever come off his horse at Road To The Horse. If he was this great horseman he would have known what was coming not been surprised and if he had a good seat and would not have come off.
It is possible to be both, it is also possible to lack in one or the other. But it doesn't make you a bad person, which I feel that you guys are making him really sound like
Do not think anyone said PP was a bad PERSON. We said he is a bad rider and just an OK trainer.
 
#95 ·
NO one is picking on Pat. We are stating facts in evidence. I am stating what I have seen of him in person and on the videos that are posted. Some over the years are even worse then the one posted on here but he has had them taken down b/c they show how truly bad he is and he can not take the criticism.

You asked why. We stated why and give evidence to support the why. The video you posted of the pally again shows how a NON PRO rider is even better then PP who is suppose to be a PRO Trainer. If you can not see the difference then you need to go back and study some more and learn a lot more.
 
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#103 ·
Not long after we got horses, I bought a book by CA. It wasn't bad, but I didn't get much help from it either. Haven't bought anything else from him.

FWIW, of the DVDs I've bought, I liked Larry Trocha's best. Chris Irwin used to have videos on Statelinetack, and I liked those - particularly for a beginner. I usually think Julie Goodnight has OK stuff. The John Lyons DVDs I bought were OK but not really relevant to my needs. One of his books was better, IMHO.

As someone who started at 50, I think DVD's on RIDING would be more helpful to the average beginner than DVDs on TRAINING. Larry Trocha has one on basic beginning stuff from a western perspective, and I could have saved myself a lot of trouble and maybe a bad back by watching it before I started riding.
 
#105 ·
For me there is too much "playing" with these guys DVDs. One thing I like about Stacys DVDs is that there is no playing. What she does I have been doing for years before I ever got the DVDs. What they have given me is just the back up for what I was already doing and a bit of more finesse added in on some things. However I would like so see more on different things. She tends, which I agree with, to just hit on certain things with in each set of DVDs. Like one is just on body control. One is just on stops one on ground work one on starting young horses. Each give good info but not complete. Things is I do not think anyone can really give you a complete look at training.

I also like Al Dunning but he tends to only use one horse so you do not see green horses to finished or close to finished horses so I think you loose a bit of needed info there. Stacy tends to use several horses at different levels in hers.

Shawn is more about the mind part of training and showing in his DVDs which I like. It is nice to hear what goes through his mind as he is doing things.

Each of these trainers have one thing in common. They have all proven that what they are talking about works.
 
#106 ·
Yeah. Proving your training means a lot to me. When I was learning when I was younger, I never watched a DVD on horse training. I had a lot of mentors just in my family and right in my area, I found I could learn a lot more sitting down having a cup of coffee with the old cowboys at the sale yard cafe. So as far as learning from DVDs, it's never really worked much for me.. I've learned through experience and the people around me.
 
#107 ·
I think CA has an easier way about him, a little rougher around the edges perhaps, what you see is what you get
I cant get sucked into any of them but his riding looks more impressive by far (and hey - I know nothing about western riding)
I watch his TV series sometimes and I dont get the need to desensitise every single horse to the whip as some sort of a 'cure all'
If a horse has never been hit with a whip its not going to see it as a weapon of abuse, if it has been hit with one enough to make if afraid then why would it be disrespectful and lastly if I'm working with some smart *** horse that thinks running over the top of me and taking a flying kick as it passes by is a good idea then I'd much rather it were more than a little bit afraid of the whip
Maybe someone else can explain this?
Really though - what does it matter if I like the individual - I'm not going to be inviting them to dinner let alone sleep with them afterwards am I?
 
#108 ·
I do not like desensitizing a horse. I prefer to get them to the point that they have emotional control. Once they have that they learn how to work through new things much easier. They learn how to deal vs just getting use to certain things.
 
#109 ·
Don't care for PP. His methods would make my one mare into a monster and the other confused as heck.

I take somethings from CA, but only what I can use. I do like his handy stick though... Much better than some of the ones that you can get cheaper. I've had mine for almost three years now. Worked good to whack my paint across the rear when she was threatening to kick me. Hasn't done it since. Most of the time though it sits in my shed as I rarely have any use for it "lol:
 
#111 ·
I look at the DVDs like I do my tools. I do a lot of carpentry. I like to build things. To me DVDs to not teach me to train they just add tools to my tool box. It is like when I go out and buy a new saw. Yes I can cut wood with my circular saw but a compound miter works better. These tools do not teach me to build but they help me do the work needed to build what I want.

Same with these DVDs. They should not be used to teach you to train a horse but simply as tools to make it easier. I look at trainers like PP as framing carpenters. Yes they can build but it is all rough work. I look at trainers like Shawn as Finish carpenters. They have the skills needed to get the fine work done and do the finishing touches. Yes a finish carpenter can build anything from a rough framing but them can also go the extra mile and do the finish work to make it all look really really good and easy. Now a good framing carpenter can make the finish carpenters work easier and a bad one can make the work harder. I look at PP as a bad framing carpenter that makes the finish carpenters work harder.
 
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#112 ·
Dang did this thread get set on fire ;)

About Clinton Anderson - Now this is coming from ME not my hubby LOL. Hubby usually will say it's not me when he posts but I think sometimes he forgets. He seriously needs to get his own sign in name.

Anyway, on CA, he's okay. There's things I don't necessarily agree with. This "sensitize/desensitize" thing every time you turn around is puzzling to me. I also don't like to use a whip/stick/whatever you call it every single time I do something with my horse. There's times I will use it, times I won't. I don't like to be locked into a certain way.

I will say, he's helped my hubby understand things I can't necessarily explain. I think that's a particular key to his success. He has a way of explaining something that makes sense to people who are struggling with a concept.

I'm not a big fan of "learning by DVD" AT all. But, in the absence of a trainer, I guess it's better than nothing. I know that when hubby is ready, I'll teach him what I can and then pass him off to a trainer where he can take lessons and get a better understanding and get pushed farther than my own knowledge. In fact we'll BOTH probably go because all those little things I've forgotten over the years I'll have to re-learn anyway.
 
#113 ·
I think Bsms made a good point; that videos showing riding would be better for beginners , as opposed to videos for training. Beginners shouldn't really be training in the first place.

however, beginners do need to know how to do the basics of handling their horse safely and without worsening his ground manners. I think that in theory, that's what PP started out trying to do; make horse handling divisible into set skills. It does help a beginner to teach them how to back their horse, or send it arounmd or through a tight place . All of those skills would come into play when taking a horse through a gate, for example. Just having some ability to handle a leadrope is a skill a beginner has to learn. They don't come born being able to do that.

a lot of people get that far and no farther. They aren't horse people. They don't have the kind of life situation that nrharainer or Wanstrom have; horses and more horse all around them and growing up with horses and horse people and mentors gallore. They will never compete. They just want someone to quantify what they need to learn to have at least some better control/relationship with their hobby horse.

And, ya know, that's cool. it's better than blundering around with no help.

So, some go on, learn more and may find that PP's teachings don't cover the width and the breadth of what you need to consider to be a trainer. Then they might change their opinion, and might look farther for more knowledge. But, the got a start.

So, though I am NO pro, no where near as experienced as many riders here, and I can agree with a LOT of what is said about PP producing some problem horses, I will also say that he has helped a lot of horse owners. Just not in the same sphere as those that are here now saying he is a bad rider and they would n't let him on their horse's back and that someday, you'll understand. Try to understand the situation of the hobby horseowner, too. They aren't ready for all that you know. not yet. and may not likely ever get there. I know I won't .
 
#114 ·
You made a good point there Tiny. I guess in my area, you hardly ever see a hobby horse owner. We all work on horse back. Heck, my hubby rode ponies for the first ten years of his life to the bus stop every day. And it is something that makes me opinion very strong when it comes to DVD clinicians. I guess, in my own opinion and experiences, I see a lot of things in their methods that go against everything I was ever taught about horses. My dad grew up ranching, my mom was a racehorse jockey, my grandpa was a notorious horse trader, my uncle made an honest living training bridle horses, my husband is fourth generation cowboy, and I guess that's all stuff I take for granted. I've never looked at things from another's point of view until I joined this forum. Honestly, I've never been on a trail ride where I wasn't trailing cattle or checking fence or packing salt. I don't understand the hobby horse lifestyle. And I guess that may be something I need to take into consideration when strongly stating my opinion.. But still, I don't like PP. :wink:
 
#115 ·
Well, I've never lived with horse/cattle working people. I would have dearly , dearly loved to, but this was not the life I got borned into.

I think it's good for some of the beginners to hear what more advanced persons think of PP, ,but sometimes, folks need things that are made for them, where they are NOW. in time, they might see different.

And, there are some people who achieve great results with Parelli.

I try to stay open minded when one of my dearest friends talks about her excitement in learning new things, or going to some Parelli clinic. But, I still find it hard to be comfortable with what I see going on with Parelli practicing hobby horse owners (lots of them around here).

But, if I hadn't stumbled into the trainer that I have now, I would not know what I was missing.
 
#118 ·
I do not agree with Padrona, lets just say, but I'm not going to get into it.

But in any case I have one of Mark Rashid's books, and I really like it. I'm not sure what the horse murderer comment is all about... Now I have to admit I have not actually seen him ride, so if he is a bad rider like Pat someone please correct me.
 
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