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Pat or Clint

This is a discussion on Pat or Clint within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        03-07-2013, 12:38 PM
      #191
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dknatura    
    I think the word Natural Horsemanship implies that we should be talking about speaking a natural language with the horses, and personally I think it should be the horse's language, not the predator versus prey which is the case with both Pat and Clint.
    ok...first off I gong to be completely blunt with this...you're foolish if you really want to speak the horses language...I want to watch you get kicked in the ribs by a 1100 pound horse and walk away or bit by a lead horse for not moving your feet when told to do so and watch you getting your organs put back in your body in the emergency room.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dknatura    
    But of course they are good at getting a horse to just 'function' and if that is the issue - OK - go ahead.
    Wow! I don't even know where to start with this one. What is a horses purpose? I resent the fact that you say just to "function" because if this was the case no one would own horses because they are WILD animals. They were domesticated for a PURPOSE ...aka a "function" but I guess you see a dog is the same way being trained huh? Just to function? Same difference.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dknatura    
    But I think the ultimate natural horsemanahip must the kind where the horse chooses to be with the human being and has fun together with the human - but still respects him.
    See above remark....A horse would not "choose" to be with anyone. They are WILD animals.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dknatura    
    And if you try to look at the Hempfling video with an open mind (taking off the cowboy boots and hat for a few minutes) then you will notice how respectfully this horse is 'playing' with his master.
    Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dknatura    
    But I can imagine you would not like to own him, because certainly that is a stallion with character and spirit, and I guess that is often unwanted. But why then bother about being natural???
    You're **** right I wouldnt own a stallion with "character or spirit" because again you're going to get seriously hurt or killed without that stallion knowing who is the herd leader...ME! I honestly don't know if you understand what is meant by "natural" either that or you are just taking it to extremes.

    Also, you may want to learn the more about predator/pray animals. Horse are in fact a pray animal. The difference being that any animal with their eyes on the SIDE of their head (horses, elephants, gazelles) are in fact a pray animal and an animal with eyes on the front of their head is a predator(lion, tigers etc.) You cannot change what nature has done and if you think you can change the "cycle of life" go for it.
    Ray MacDonald likes this.
         
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        03-07-2013, 02:29 PM
      #192
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CronesHubby    
    ok...first off I gong to be completely blunt with this...you're foolish if you really want to speak the horses language...I want to watch you get kicked in the ribs by a 1100 pound horse and walk away or bit by a lead horse for not moving your feet when told to do so and watch you getting your organs put back in your body in the emergency room.



    Wow! I don't even know where to start with this one. What is a horses purpose? I resent the fact that you say just to "function" because if this was the case no one would own horses because they are WILD animals. They were domesticated for a PURPOSE ...aka a "function" but I guess you see a dog is the same way being trained huh? Just to function? Same difference.




    See above remark....A horse would not "choose" to be with anyone. They are WILD animals.




    Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.




    You're **** right I wouldnt own a stallion with "character or spirit" because again you're going to get seriously hurt or killed without that stallion knowing who is the herd leader...ME! I honestly don't know if you understand what is meant by "natural" either that or you are just taking it to extremes.

    Also, you may want to learn the more about predator/pray animals. Horse are in fact a pray animal. The difference being that any animal with their eyes on the SIDE of their head (horses, elephants, gazelles) are in fact a pray animal and an animal with eyes on the front of their head is a predator(lion, tigers etc.) You cannot change what nature has done and if you think you can change the "cycle of life" go for it.
    Its not about literally speaking the horses language its about trying to 'read' the horse and so understand why its behaving the way it does. Mock all you like but it can save you an awful lot of time in the long run because horses react in many different ways for many reasons - spooking is a good example of this.
    A horse that 'just functions' isnt a willing horse, its very often a sour , bored, begrudging horse - and this is something you often see in horses produced the Parelli way. Hempfling's methods are the not the same as those used by PP or CA - he is not into what we typically recognise as Natural Horsemanship
    Hempfling is not a young man now, he's been working with horses in his own way for many years and managed to survive so he must be doing something right to earn that trust and respect from them without breaking their spirit
    No one is saying that horses are not prey animals - Hempfling recognises that which is why his way is that we don't take on the role as predator - horses don't trust predators and tend to run away from them, fear them and avoid them. The example is in how some people use the round pen situation to intimidate and exhaust a horse in the way that a predator hunts down its victim so the result is a defeated animal and not a willing one where the aim has been to use it to develop a relationship and trust situation.
    Having a horse respect you and lean on you as its leader, partner, alpha means that its not going to regard you as something to attack and injure but see you as someone it can rely on in all situations
    The 'real' alpha horse in the herd is not the aggressive bully, its the solid reliable passive horse that they trust.
    If you don't like his methods (and you've taken the time to research them)then fine but I see no reason for you to be so arrogant and rude about something that other people do find interesting and useful and a training method that has had a lot of success all across Europe. Even respected western trainers - including many of the older ones have voiced negative comments about the prey/predator approach and the sort of horses that come out of it
    dknatura likes this.
         
        03-07-2013, 03:15 PM
      #193
    Trained
    First I think you need to define character and spirit.


    All my horses have character and spirit both my stallion and my mares. All are very well trained well behaved and can be taken anywhere. My stallion anyone can ride. They have all been shown quite a bit. These personality traits does not make a horse dangerous in and of them selves. There is more to it then just that. There is a time and place for everything. As long as the horse knows when and where things are and are not acceptable they are great.
    COWCHICK77 and soenjer55 like this.
         
        03-07-2013, 09:12 PM
      #194
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
    First I think you need to define character and spirit.


    All my horses have character and spirit both my stallion and my mares. All are very well trained well behaved and can be taken anywhere. My stallion anyone can ride. They have all been shown quite a bit. These personality traits does not make a horse dangerous in and of them selves. There is more to it then just that. There is a time and place for everything. As long as the horse knows when and where things are and are not acceptable they are great.

    Thank you nrhareiner!
    I agree, just because a horse is trained a different way or doesn't rear on command, it doesn't mean that they have no "spirit" or character!

    I have rode so many ranch horses broke in traditional ways and they were all individuals and had their "quirks". My horses all have their own personalities and are rode and handled accordingling.
         
        03-08-2013, 07:38 AM
      #195
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CronesHubby    
    ok...first off I gong to be completely blunt with this...you're foolish if you really want to speak the horses language...I want to watch you get kicked in the ribs by a 1100 pound horse and walk away or bit by a lead horse for not moving your feet when told to do so and watch you getting your organs put back in your body in the emergency room.



    Wow! I don't even know where to start with this one. What is a horses purpose? I resent the fact that you say just to "function" because if this was the case no one would own horses because they are WILD animals. They were domesticated for a PURPOSE ...aka a "function" but I guess you see a dog is the same way being trained huh? Just to function? Same difference.




    See above remark....A horse would not "choose" to be with anyone. They are WILD animals.




    Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.




    You're **** right I wouldnt own a stallion with "character or spirit" because again you're going to get seriously hurt or killed without that stallion knowing who is the herd leader...ME! I honestly don't know if you understand what is meant by "natural" either that or you are just taking it to extremes.

    Also, you may want to learn the more about predator/pray animals. Horse are in fact a pray animal. The difference being that any animal with their eyes on the SIDE of their head (horses, elephants, gazelles) are in fact a pray animal and an animal with eyes on the front of their head is a predator(lion, tigers etc.) You cannot change what nature has done and if you think you can change the "cycle of life" go for it.
    You really can't compare WILD feral horses with domesticated horses. So the horses we own, can't not be considered wild....because they aren't. They were born in a totally different environment and human presence right from the get-go. HUGE difference.

    A horse can certainly have spirit, character AND functionality.....it comes down to training and respect from both sides...horse and human.

    The only thing I agree with in your post in "playing" with your horse. I don't "play" with my horse either at liberty or under saddle. I ask and he responds, he knows his job well, and does it happily.
    soenjer55 likes this.
         
        03-08-2013, 04:14 PM
      #196
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CronesHubby    
    Again, if you want an 1100 pound horse "playing" with you...I want a video when you get kicked or bit and end up with broken ribs or a serious injury from a bite because eventually a horses "playing" is going to get your hurt or killed. Go for it. I'll keep demanding my horse knows Im the alpha.
    Here ya go...

         
        03-08-2013, 04:26 PM
      #197
    Foal
    My bad, this video is better and shows aftermath pics of this woman "playing" with her horse....

         
        03-08-2013, 07:53 PM
      #198
    Foal
    This is how horses play with each other, why on earth would a human try to play with their horse??

    I consider this one way to weed out the weaker link.
    GotaDunQH likes this.
         
        03-08-2013, 10:52 PM
      #199
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sharond    
    This is how horses play with each other, why on earth would a human try to play with their horse??

    I consider this one way to weed out the weaker link.
    Love this!! Yea, I'm not a horse...so I don't want my horse thinking I am one. People talk about being the "alpha" mare with their horses. Well, first off....like I said, I 'm not a horse, and secondly...I'm that OTHER being in their life that sets the rules, the routine etc and my horses know the difference.
    soenjer55 and horsecrazygirl like this.
         
        03-09-2013, 01:05 AM
      #200
    Yearling
    Personally, I don't want to be treated like a horse, just like I'm sure my horses don't want to be treated like humans. A horse should be treated like a horse, because that's what he is. Every situation where a horse has been treated like anything other than what he is that I've seen- as a dog, a human, whatever- has ended badly.
    I don't need to be a horse to learn to understand them and communicate clearly, I do just fine the way I am, and they shouldn't need to be humans to understand me- if they do, I'm doing something very wrong. Trying to act like a horse is ridiculous to me... you're just jumping into a world where you don't know the rules and are incapable of following them anyway. The idea of trying to teach a horse to speak English and join human society as one of us is absurd, so why do people insist on doing the opposite? It's the difference between communication and language.
    I won't say that I hate natural horsemanship, because I also always thought that what it's represented by now is a very skewed version of what it started as. I also think that the definition is a bit different for everyone... For me, I always thought that natural horsemanship was a more organic and simple approach to horses, with the goal of communicating and building a partnership as simply and naturally as possible, to strip it all down to a horse and a human and to try and build up from there. Not to become more like a horse, but to teach both you and the horse to understand each other better as you are. That's why I get so irked when I see this 'natural horsemanship' that requires you to buy a special this and special that and this DVD and that CD and this and that gadget, because that goes against my idea of natural horsemanship entirely. A trainer/teacher should teach you to teach yourself.
    Hempfling is obviously not new to horses, I don't doubt that he knows what he's doing and has quite a bit of knowledge tucked away, and I do appreciate some of what I see in that video... but hailing it as "true natural horsemanship" isn't the first thing on my agenda. As pretty as that horse is, I would not like to have him think it's okay to flail his hooves in my face the way he does there... I love a spirited horse, I appreciate seeing one, I love working with one- as long as they know when to let their spirit go wild and when to control it to buckle down and work. It's not crushing their spirit to ask for respect for your space and safety. It's just teaching them that there's a time and place for everything.
         

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