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Pat or Clint

This is a discussion on Pat or Clint within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        03-09-2013, 09:18 AM
      #201
    Super Moderator
    Hempfling's version of Natural Horsemanship is totally different to the NH of Parelli and co. And shouldnt be confused with that or even put in the same box
    His ideas on communication with horses are nothing to do with them seeing you as a horse or treating you as a horse or vv.
    He also treats each horse as an individual case - and that is part of understanding horses - they are all different as they all have unique personalities and history so all have different needs. The problem with most NH trainers is that they have a set pattern and apply that to every horse
    His ways arent unique and he would never claim they are, the horses he gets sent are often extreme examples in terms of aggression or nervousness and not the sort of horses that most of us will ever get to deal with
    If you look at this first video - he is no 'soft touch' around this horse, he allows it to let off steam but not to invade his safe zone.
    His method is to build a bond with a horse that's based on willingness, trust and respect rather than defeat in the predator/prey ways but that doesnt mean that the horse doesnt have to learn recognised boundaries or be allowed to be a danger to humans as that would defeat the purpose
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HEtmvuEkmw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVAcyMZ8CMY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgyGa_tgNu8
    Its another of those things that you can take what you like from it and find interesting or useful or move on and ignore but unless you actually take the time to research his ideas then you really have no clue what its all about
         
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        03-09-2013, 10:29 AM
      #202
    Weanling
    Hempling does not start out with what he is doing loose, there is much training in hand first. Imho what he does is NOT for beginners who cannot read behaviors/responses in DEPTH.He makes it LOOK easy because he is experienced in PROGRESSIVE training. But the question is why do work loose? It is safer for horse and rider to train for purpose (which should be riding), and keep control. Anything else really ends up (sadly) being for market share, to impress non horsemen to buy products. What he does is a basis for future training (whether it is circus work or riding). The rest is circus (my mom did that as a child) but often does not play into a more useful riding horses per se. Too many people do not understand that horses are equine, not human. They are only doing what they would do with other horses, too many amorphisize them to humans. He knows not to do that, but is humble in their presence as well.
         
        03-09-2013, 11:25 AM
      #203
    Foal
    I think the video I posted is a prime example of what can happen when people get "bought" into some of the NH trainers, specifically PP, who I have seen more first time (read NO previous horse experience ever) horse owners start to follow than the others. If you have no horse experience otherwise how are you supposed to know how to read a horses behavior, know the early warning signs that the horse is irritated, annoyed, etc? Everyone wants a great relationship with their horse, and that is what these clinicians are marketing for, I can use PP concepts as well as CA, CC, JL, etc and take some things from each, but I can see that ONE way will not work for every case. I think Hempfling is in a completely different category than the NH'ers, I did not see an annoyed, stressed, or disrespectful animal in his video, although I do not like that the horse was allowed to rear so close to him, I understand that it is his thing, he trains circus horses, and that is something they are taught to do on command. He seemed like he knew his horse, and was confident, and his horse the same.

    There are some things you cannot teach over a DVD set. They may be helpful to people who already understand the inner workings of horses, but if you are an equine virgin, nothing can teach you what hands on, individualized lessons and training from a real live knowledgeable horse person can. I personally like CC myself, but I can honestly say I have taken things from almost all of the NH trainers and applied them to training. An acquaintance bought into PP and I did some of the games with her, they confused and frustrated my gelding, and honestly hers as well, so I stopped, she continued and had a horribly disrespectful 4 year old welsh pony who would rear, needed a chain over the nose for barn crew to bring to his stall and turn out, and was just plain nasty. She was a first time horse owner, was confronted on his behavior because it is dangerous for anyone to handle, and was politely asked to leave because she would not take anyone's advice on how to help her and her horse NOT be so disrespectful and down right dangerous. Don't know how she is now, but she was well on her way to being killed, and couldn't see that even if it hit her in the face, and it hit her in the face multiple times.

    So, that is my rant... Not one of these clinicians are the "messiah" of all things horse. I just wish people realized that BEFORE they bought into the hype. Especially the first time horse owners.
         
        03-09-2013, 12:50 PM
      #204
    Yearling
    Frankly what little I know about Hempfling makes me like him, definitely more than Parelli or Anderson. I still don't like the idea of "playing" with a horse, personally, but like I said, there are still things in the video that I appreciate. He's obviously not new to horses and has quite a bit of experience tucked in there. I'm not going to set down any absolutes about him because, like you said, I don't know enough.
         
        03-09-2013, 01:47 PM
      #205
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by soenjer55    
    Frankly what little I know about Hempfling makes me like him, definitely more than Parelli or Anderson. I still don't like the idea of "playing" with a horse, personally, but like I said, there are still things in the video that I appreciate. He's obviously not new to horses and has quite a bit of experience tucked in there. I'm not going to set down any absolutes about him because, like you said, I don't know enough.
    I think what you'll see in people like Hempfling is that what they do isnt 'playing' but all part of a teaching phase, they don't take risks and the horse knows exactly what the rules are.
    Its when people go out and think they can do this with any old horse without the skill and th controls in place that accidents happen, the horses may be behaving & playing like a labrador dog but they are way more powerful. To allow a horse to be like that is actually disrespectful to the horse
    You have to take whats useful from all of these people and use it or store it for future reference - but to me its only the info that matters and I would never become a 'groupie'
    I find this old guys comments really funny on this video - I wouldnt agree with a lot of his ideas but this one I like, the horse knows exactly where it stands with him, has a surprising understanding but has its own mind spirit
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvQHZzys4BE
    soenjer55 and EliRose like this.
         
        03-11-2013, 11:24 AM
      #206
    Banned
    I see people here saying "There's lots of training", "He doesnt start out that way with the horse", "He treats all horses as individuals" and think their trainer is the only one to do it. Here's the thing...MOST of the "Natural Horsemenship Trainers" will tell you that. We just went and attended a CA Walkabout tour in Tampa, FL. Clinton will tell you right up front that each horse is different. He also says he's not the best horse training in the world and there are other that can train better than him. He will also tell you there are many different methods you can use. What I find really amazing is people here that haven't seen/used more than one trainers video will defend their "trainer" without knowledge of what any other trainer has said. Thinking that theirs is the only way. Equitate, Im going to use yours as an example..you stated, "Hempling does not start out with what he is doing loose, there is much training in hand first" At the tour this weekend, Clinton did a Liberty exercise with Diez and it was incredible. Clinton said he worked Diez 6 days a week for 1-1.5 hours a day for TWO YEARS to get the results he did. Another one is Stacey Westfall put in 1200 hours of training for one run(reigning). The whole points is no one horse trainer has the ONLY method that works for every horse. I keep an open mind to MOST trainers. I will say I like some things about Hempfield BUT for a novice who doesn't know how many hours and years that goes into training like this and just see the videos you end up with the video above with the girl kicked in the face. There were SO many warning signs the horse was agitated it wasn't funny(head shake, ears pinned etc) and the girl didn't pick up on it. I bet she didn't have 100 hours of training on that horse. This might sounds cruel but she got what she deserved for being STUPID. So, I guess what Im trying to say is NO TRAINER is perfect but if you don't know everything about a particular trainer don't say anything negative about them. Use what knowledge you want from each trainer but remember this. RESPECT from you towards your horse AND your horse towards you, I feel, is the MAIN thing. That doesnt mean you break their spirit because I can tell you this, from watching CA with Diez ...there was plenty of spirit left in him. Oh! One thing that just hit me....If you think a horse being TRAINED TO REAR(like for the circus) means the horse still has spirit...you're incorrect...its like any other thing. They are trained to do it...the same way some horses are trained to lie down.
         
        03-11-2013, 11:55 AM
      #207
    Super Moderator
    Croneshubby - I think you are actually saying what most of us on here have already said - that we don't treat one trainer as a know all God person and that because horses have been around us for centuries in their domesticated state there is no way that anyone can say they are doing something that hasnt been done before and most of our irritation is aimed at people who do treat one person like an idol and refuse to see any wrong in anything they do or say - and I'm pretty sure that people like equitate don't fall into that category
    Another thing to remember is that many of us are old enough to have grown up before the internet/video age and had to rely on books and - better still - real life influences - to gain our knowledge. I've learnt from gypsy horse dealers right through to top class competitors with many more in between but they all had something to offer
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        03-11-2013, 12:24 PM
      #208
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    Having a horse respect you and lean on you as its leader, partner, alpha means that its not going to regard you as something to attack and injure but see you as someone it can rely on in all situations
    The 'real' alpha horse in the herd is not the aggressive bully, its the solid reliable passive horse that they trust.
    If you don't like his methods (and you've taken the time to research them)then fine but I see no reason for you to be so arrogant and rude about something that other people do find interesting and useful and a training method that has had a lot of success all across Europe. Even respected western trainers - including many of the older ones have voiced negative comments about the prey/predator approach and the sort of horses that come out of it
    First off jaydee I totally disagree with several of these statement. Having a horse seeing you as an alpha does not mean you're going to attack or injure it. It means you are in control. Yes, its wants to rely on you to keep it safe and ALIVE. You get a horses respect by being the one that moves its feet. That is HORSE NATURE. The first horse that moves their feet loses and becomes lower on the herd pecking order. The one that moves their feet last in the herd IS the alpha.
    For someone that thinks they know so much about horse behavior you are totally incorrect about the "alpha" of the herd. Watch a mare that is a herd leader she will pin her ears, bite on the other horses to get them to move their feet and do what she wants them to do to keep them safe. The alpha IS basically the herd bully in a matter of speaking. A PASSIVE horse, as you put it, will not keep the herd safe nor will the other horses look to it leadership. More than likely the passive horse wont be in the herd that long because it will be eaten as prey.
    As far as me being arrogant and rude, I'm sorry if the truth hurts peoples feelings but I didn't see anything I said as being arrogant. I stated MY opinions about "playing" with the horse. As a matter of fact, I wasn't even addressing his methods at all. I was responding to dknatura's post about "natural horsemenship" I did not say his methods were bad, just two different types of training. I do not want to train to rear and paw at me being a circus horse or not...that is how accidents happen. Prime example of this is how many years did Sigfried and Roy have their tigers and all of a sudden....Roy got munched. You will NEVER completely train or breed out a horses reactive side of their brain(spooking for example)...just as you will never train out a prey part or their brain. Its nature. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to train how they want but don't call me rude and arrogant when everything I stated was TRUE.
    Ray MacDonald likes this.
         
        03-11-2013, 01:18 PM
      #209
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CronesHubby    
    First off jaydee I totally disagree with several of these statement. Having a horse seeing you as an alpha does not mean you're going to attack or injure it. It means you are in control. Yes, its wants to rely on you to keep it safe and ALIVE. You get a horses respect by being the one that moves its feet. That is HORSE NATURE. The first horse that moves their feet loses and becomes lower on the herd pecking order. The one that moves their feet last in the herd IS the alpha.
    For someone that thinks they know so much about horse behavior you are totally incorrect about the "alpha" of the herd. Watch a mare that is a herd leader she will pin her ears, bite on the other horses to get them to move their feet and do what she wants them to do to keep them safe. The alpha IS basically the herd bully in a matter of speaking. A PASSIVE horse, as you put it, will not keep the herd safe nor will the other horses look to it leadership. More than likely the passive horse wont be in the herd that long because it will be eaten as prey.
    As far as me being arrogant and rude, I'm sorry if the truth hurts peoples feelings but I didn't see anything I said as being arrogant. I stated MY opinions about "playing" with the horse. As a matter of fact, I wasn't even addressing his methods at all. I was responding to dknatura's post about "natural horsemenship" I did not say his methods were bad, just two different types of training. I do not want to train to rear and paw at me being a circus horse or not...that is how accidents happen. Prime example of this is how many years did Sigfried and Roy have their tigers and all of a sudden....Roy got munched. You will NEVER completely train or breed out a horses reactive side of their brain(spooking for example)...just as you will never train out a prey part or their brain. Its nature. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. Everyone is entitled to train how they want but don't call me rude and arrogant when everything I stated was TRUE.
    From what I see what you see as 'True' is based on your misinterpretation of what was said/posted
    You might not think that you came over as rude but actually you did - try to see things from other peoples prespective once in while
    No you wont 'train out' the prey part of a horses brain - what you do is train the horse to know that you are not the predator - and honestly since most horses are around humans from birth the only time they see us as predator is when we start to behave like one.
    You can train a horse to move its feet without behaving like an aggressive horse - or being aggressive at all. A horse that's nervous and distrustful of people is far harder to train than one that's confident and trusting around people - that doesnt mean it doesnt understand rules and boundaries but you don't have to use aggression or bully tactics to establish those.
    The lead mare (the real alpha) is the one that the herd follows - its not the one they avoid. We want our horses to come to us - not run away.
    Its been said that Mark Rashid also has his 'dark side' but his comments on the alpha mare are interesting. You should maybe look them up.
         
        03-11-2013, 01:48 PM
      #210
    Green Broke
    I agree with CronesHubby. I also did not think he came off as rude, just honest in his opinion.

    The alpha mare is the one who moves all the horse's feet. Because she is at the top of the pecking order. She's the boss woman ;)
    horsecrazygirl likes this.
         

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