Pat or Clint - Page 22 - The Horse Forum

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post #211 of 245 Old 03-11-2013, 02:08 PM
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While an alpha mare is one who makes other horses move. You must define how she makes them move. Dose she make them move b/c she is chasing them or are they moving to follow her? This is the question. While both makes the other horses move which is a true leader?

At the end of the day a the alpha needs to be a leader. Not a bully. Be it a horse or a human.
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post #212 of 245 Old 03-11-2013, 02:09 PM
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Pat! I am not a big Clint fan at all... I watched him then stopped because I didn't like it. THen I came back a couple years later and I stopped again. Not a clint fan at all
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post #213 of 245 Old 03-11-2013, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nrhareiner View Post
While an alpha mare is one who makes other horses move. You must define how she makes them move. Dose she make them move b/c she is chasing them or are they moving to follow her? This is the question. While both makes the other horses move which is a true leader?

At the end of the day a the alpha needs to be a leader. Not a bully. Be it a horse or a human.
Regardless of how or why she makes them move that is how horses establish dominance/leadership/pecking order. Call it whatever you will. There is zero difference as to why she makes them move their feet. Explain to me what the difference is....not what you THINK it is. If a new horse comes into a herd he/she has to find where they fit in the pecking order..how does that horse do that? By making the other ones move their feet. There is NO difference how or why...bully or alpha...they are both one and the same.
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post #214 of 245 Old 03-11-2013, 03:35 PM
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No bully and alpha are not the same. I have both in my herd. My alpha can move the others off with a look... my bully chases and picks and picks and picks at the other horses when she can get away with it.

Bully =/= Alpha
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post #215 of 245 Old 03-11-2013, 05:24 PM
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Regardless of how or why she makes them move that is how horses establish dominance/leadership/pecking order. Call it whatever you will. There is zero difference as to why she makes them move their feet. Explain to me what the difference is....not what you THINK it is. If a new horse comes into a herd he/she has to find where they fit in the pecking order..how does that horse do that? By making the other ones move their feet. There is NO difference how or why...bully or alpha...they are both one and the same.
There is a big difference between a bully and an Alpha horse. Just like NDAppy stated. A horse can be a bully and not be Alpha and most Alphas are not bullies.

My Dun It mare is Alpha. However when she was younger she was more of a Bully and my Poco g-daughter was Alpha. When Cassie came home from years at the trainer she stopped being a bully but she still wanted to be Alpha. Yes my Poco mare was still alive and was still alpha even at 31 before she died. She was Alpha and it would have been so easy for Cassie to have killed her so easy or at the very least hurt her and taken that Alpha spot she so much wanted. Yet she never did. Sara was the leader and Cassie knew it and followed her. Now that she is Alpha I see her lead in much the same way Sara did. She is not related to Sara in any real way yet Cassie learned how to be a good Alpha from Sara by watching and learning from her. That is the mark of a good leader.

Also a bully that is not Alpha maybe able to make horses under them move their feet but they will never be able to get the ones higher them them to move.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
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post #216 of 245 Old 03-11-2013, 05:24 PM
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I guess you have to decide for yourself if you want to be the true alpha leader that your horse trusts and relies on in all situations and so follows willingly because it sees you as its leader
Or
If you want to be the bully that you see as the alpha which is the horse the others run away from and avoid and would prefer not to follow but to be as far away from as possible
I have a 'bully' amongst my 'herd' of five and she is most definitely not the leader when it comes down to it. She may push the others away from food but she lacks confidence in 'scarey' situations and is totally dependant on the calm reliable passive alpha mare to give the lead - and when this mare wants what she wants she just walks quietly through and they all move away and let her - I have never once seen her attack another horse or even look mean, she just somehow commands respect - maybe because they all know in their own 'horsey way' that's she's the one they all rely on and so can't do without.
This should be a clip from a longer video where Mark Rashid explains very well how a herd actually works. Ignore the bit tacked on the end as not relevant.
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post #217 of 245 Old 03-12-2013, 01:11 PM
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ok...I will admit there is difference between a bully and an alpha horse after thinking about some of the things I seen. Now that I think about it, I have seen a horse run another up and down the pasture for no reason that were not the alphas HOWEVER...I do still disagree that the alpha is a "passive" horse. Maybe that's not the word you are looking for, I don't know but passive would not stay alpha long. I still stand by my original statement that the alpha DOES need to be KIND OF a bully. Passive, nope. Maybe level-headed is a better word but passive is going to get the herd in trouble or he/she is going to be lunch. Passive is non-aggressive/inactive; receptive to outside impressions or influences which is NOT by definition an alpha. Those two words contradict themselves.

Also, I don't take everything Mark Rashid, since you want to site him so much, says as gospel as you all like to say ..take from everyone and learn all you can.
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post #218 of 245 Old 03-12-2013, 01:56 PM
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Then how do you explain a 32 yo mare who can hardly move still being the Alpha horse when there are others who would gladly take that position if she was not there? Who could easily KILL her with little to no effort? Yet they do not even so much as try to move her or take her on. They move when she wanted all she had to do was give them a look.
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-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #219 of 245 Old 03-12-2013, 02:02 PM
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I call that the force of personality, assurance in themselves and their position in the herd...
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post #220 of 245 Old 03-12-2013, 02:05 PM
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That is what a leader is. It is more of a presence they have vs what they do to get that role. If you get to know a person who is a true leader and watch them. They can walk into a room and everyone just gravitates to them and they end up leading with out any work at it. Same goes with a true alpha mare.
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-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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