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Pat or Clint

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        03-12-2013, 03:22 PM
      #221
    Super Moderator
    Croneshubby - I used the video of Mark Rashids as it shows a good example of herd behaviour and he gives a pretty accurate description of what a herd alpha really is - I don't recall anyone saying that they hung on his every word.
    This is just another case of gathering information from all sorts of sources and evaluating it to see what might be useful.
    A herd actually does need a passive leader that will have the calm courage to lead wherever they need to go, keep the others settled and at ease. Horses in the wild couldnt afford to waste an ounce of energy racing off every time a twig snapped or a bird farted. A wise mare knows when theres real danger - horses have amazing powers of scent and will pick up the smell of a predator before its a risk to them. The lead mare then wants the others to follow her away from that danger and to safety - not to be running away from her like headless chickens in all directions because they don't trust her to not be wanting to attack them for some reason
    An aggressive handler usually makes a horse tense and nervous even though it might appear to be compliant.
    Do not confuse passive with stupid and dull.
    This passes on to your horse in the way you ride it. It sees something it finds scarey but if it trusts in you and you stay calm then they will believe you. I rarely need to desensitise my horses to anything more than the general way of them getting used to stuff around the place because they see me as someone to trust and not someone to fear.
    Understanding horses and their behaviour doesnt mean we should become like horses ourselves. We learn their 'language' and also educate them in ours They have the approximate mental ability of a 2 year old child, as adult humans we are far superior to that.
    Early man could never have captured horses and domesticated them on their terms - they are far faster and much stronger than we are.
         
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        03-13-2013, 01:29 PM
      #222
    Banned
    You know what...Im not going to sit here and go back and forth with closed minded people who THINK they know everything. I have much better things to do, like spending time with my horses. I was willing to admit something after I thought about it yet you all THINK you know everything. Fine, let me know when you all can walk on water and you know everything there is to know about horses. Little tip...that day will NEVER come. If you THINK you do you, need to get rid of your horses now because you are doing them a great disservice. Me, I'll continue to go on learning and KEEP LEARNING and keep an open mind. This is exactly why I don't come here much...people THINK they know everything and will not keep an open mind that there MIGHT be another point of view. Have fun thinking you know everything.
    Ray MacDonald likes this.
         
        03-13-2013, 01:49 PM
      #223
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CronesHubby    
    You know what...Im not going to sit here and go back and forth with closed minded people who THINK they know everything. I have much better things to do, like spending time with my horses. I was willing to admit something after I thought about it yet you all THINK you know everything. Fine, let me know when you all can walk on water and you know everything there is to know about horses. Little tip...that day will NEVER come. If you THINK you do you, need to get rid of your horses now because you are doing them a great disservice. Me, I'll continue to go on learning and KEEP LEARNING and keep an open mind. This is exactly why I don't come here much...people THINK they know everything and will not keep an open mind that there MIGHT be another point of view. Have fun thinking you know everything.
    No one here thinks they know everything there is to know about horses. However there is enough people here who have been around horses long enough and seen enough to know that a lead alpha mare does not need to be a bully to be the Alpha. You seem to be the only one who is closed minded on this as you can not see that can be true. I have as have others given examples of this.

    Just b/c we do not bend to your will does not make us closed minded. Just like disagreeing with Obama does not make me racist.

    Again if you think every Alpha mare just be part Bully then again I ask you to explain my old Poco mare. Yet you seem to take your toys and go home vs debated this fact. So be it.
    NdAppy, jaydee and HorseCrazyTeen like this.
         
        03-13-2013, 02:06 PM
      #224
    Trained
    I think the problem is with the word passive. A lead horse isn't passive. That doesn't mean they go around bullying others, but they also don't get respect by just standing around.

    Mia is the lead of my 3 horses. Yes, she is willing to enforce rules with teeth and hooves, although there is almost never a time she does. The little mustang HAS tried to take food away from her, and been walloped pretty hard for stupidity.

    But after a cold snap, when the sun comes out and the horses want to stretch in the sand, it is the geldings who get to. Mia stands watch over them. When the geldings are playing, and it gets too rough and someone has hurt feelings, Mia stops ignoring them long enough to stroll over and send them to opposite sides of the corral - on time out. When she thinks they are settled down, she'll allow them to mix again.

    In doing this, she doesn't rush in and attack. She undoubtedly WOULD attack if needed, but the geldings seem to understand that she is the responsible one. Much of her authority comes from being the one who always stays on watch and from her fairness and consistency in settling issues.

    The lessons I take from her are that A) I must be willing to dominate, by any means needed, and B) I must be seen as fair and caring. Weak but fair doesn't buy you any respect in the world of horses. Strong but mean may buy obedience, but not respect. If I want a horse to trust me, I need to be both dominant and responsible. I need to be willing to kick butt, but fair and consistent about doing so.

    There is nothing passive about a lead horse. Subtle, perhaps, but not passive.

    I also am not convinced that horses are always going around testing each other. From watching my 3, it seems that once they understand each other and how to relate, they largely go on autopilot. If Mia gets ill, the geldings don't shout, "Great! The Queen is Dead! One of us will take over!"

    The little BLM mustang has now been with us for 16 months. It has taken him about that long to truly become an integral part of the herd. His role could change, but it wouldn't change overnight. In a stable herd, relationships and roles don't change from day to day. Trooper could almost match Mia for raw power, but he'll never be the herd lead. He doesn't even want to be the lead. He likes having Mia take charge and watch over him.

    Interestingly, on the trail, Mia is the one most likely to get scared. And either gelding will then gladly take the lead and show her there is nothing to be afraid of, and then she relaxes. Yet both geldings get very tense if taken out without Mia, because they only feel confident when she is nearby. How that all plays in with who is the lead and who is the follower, I don't know. She is by far the most high-strung of the 3, yet the other 2 are glad to calm her down...and then let her lead. My guess is that horses have more complex social relations than human phrases like 'dominant/subordinate' and 'active/passive' words describe...

    Mia ignoring the geldings:

         
        03-13-2013, 02:38 PM
      #225
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
    No one here thinks they know everything there is to know about horses. However there is enough people here who have been around horses long enough and seen enough to know that a lead alpha mare does not need to be a bully to be the Alpha. You seem to be the only one who is closed minded on this as you can not see that can be true. I have as have others given examples of this.

    Just b/c we do not bend to your will does not make us closed minded. Just like disagreeing with Obama does not make me racist.

    Again if you think every Alpha mare just be part Bully then again I ask you to explain my old Poco mare. Yet you seem to take your toys and go home vs debated this fact. So be it.
    I've read through many pages and have YET to see you admit a mistake. I guess you just don't make any. Anyway. Enjoy your perfect little world. All I ever said was an Alpha has to be SOMEWHAT of a bully..yet you want to argue that he/she is passive when I gave you the definition of what PASSIVE and is almost completely opposite of what the definition of alpha.

    I also stated maybe that "Passive" was not the word that should be used...I believe I used the term "level headed" but I've had enough of the know it all. Like I said, I'm done with a know it all.
    Here's the thing...Im grown enough to admit I was wrong....are you? Obviously not. Bye!


    As far as politics...whatever I can't stand the POS in the WH either.
         
        03-13-2013, 03:03 PM
      #226
    Yearling
    I don't understand why there is so much hate against Pat. I used his methods with my untrusting, broodmare (which was practically a rescue) and got her from being extremely introverted and nervous to a calm, calm horse.

    But I have the Anderson and Parelli books at my house. Plus, the internet helps with other methods.I use TONS of methods to training. Plus my own. (:
         
        03-13-2013, 03:50 PM
      #227
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CronesHubby    
    I've read through many pages and have YET to see you admit a mistake.
    Yet you can not find one where I have made one to admit to I am sure. Reason? B/C if I do not know something I will not put just an opinion out there. If you read I will always back up what I say with facts and examples. In real life I have made mistakes. I learn from them and go on. I rarely make the same one twice. When I do not know or am not sure I know where and how to find the answer.

    I guess you just don't make any. Anyway. Enjoy your perfect little world. All I ever said was an Alpha has to be SOMEWHAT of a bully..yet you want to argue that he/she is passive when I gave you the definition of what PASSIVE and is almost completely opposite of what the definition of alpha.

    Not one time did I ever use the word passive. You have me mixed up with someone else. What I said was that an Alpha mare does not need to be a bully to be alpha. They need to be a leader. I owned Sara for 12 years. All 12 of those years she was the Alpha mare. I never in those 12 years did I ever see her bully anouther horse. She was a natural leader. The others knew it. Even though those other horses could have easily killed her many times over.

    I also stated maybe that "Passive" was not the word that should be used...I believe I used the term "level headed" but I've had enough of the know it all. Like I said, I'm done with a know it all.
    Here's the thing...Im grown enough to admit I was wrong....are you? Obviously not. Bye!


    As far as politics...whatever I can't stand the POS in the WH either.
    Please that is the point of a debate show me where anything I have stated was incorrect?

    You stated that an Bully may not be an Alpha but an Alpha must be a bully. I say B/S on that. I say a Alpha must be a LEADER. Leaders true leaders are rarely to NEVER a bully.
         
        03-14-2013, 09:38 AM
      #228
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nrhareiner    

    You stated that an Bully may not be an Alpha but an Alpha must be a bully. I say B/S on that. I say a Alpha must be a LEADER. Leaders true leaders are rarely to NEVER a bully.
    Correctamundo. In a true herd environment, the Alpha rarely, if ever gets physical - they rule with "the look" and dominate with looks, feints, and body position. Assuming the herd is large enough to have true herd dynamics, the number two (usually a mare) is the "enforcer", and is the one that is physical. The number two is also the one you have to be a bit careful with and keep an eye on when mingling with the herd, so you are not in the wrong place at the wrong time when she decides to enforce her will on another horse.

    Most of the time "herds" are so small that true herd dynamics don't really surface. With only 3 or 4 horses, about the only herd dynamics is a basic pecking order...
         
        03-14-2013, 09:43 AM
      #229
    Trained
    That's pretty much what it is here Face. You can tell Phoenix is top of the totem pole (lard butt that she is ), and then Callie and Chandy are constantly squabbling for 2nd. Callie is also my "bully" unless there is a person in there with them then she wants attention
         
        03-14-2013, 12:25 PM
      #230
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Faceman    
    ...With only 3 or 4 horses, about the only herd dynamics is a basic pecking order...
    Actually, with only 3 horses, I can watch them and see interaction that goes beyond pecking order. Mia is undoubtedly the top horse, but she scares the most when riding in the desert. The others are 'lower', but they cheerfully will prove to her that the palo verde tree that lost its flowers isn't a monster.

    But if they feel threatened by something in the wash next to their corral, they all back off. But if the 'threat' seems bad enough, fearful Mia is the one who will place herself between the others and the 'threat', and prance back and forth, her every movement offering a challenge and a willingness to fight.

    Even with just 3 horses, words like dominant and fearful don't describe what actually goes on.

    Another example: Mia won't share her food. Unless, that is, they've had a long, cold night and all are very hungry. She then allows the others to eat from her pile of hay UNTIL I have time to provide them with their own piles. THEN she requires them to go elsewhere. But when they are all very hungry, she will share. And I think it is that element of 'fairness' in her that helps create the respect that allows her to separate the geldings with a glance. In the end, at some level, they believe she will do right by them - to include fighting to protect them, and sharing her food when they are hungry enough, and watching over them while they rest.

    Frankly, Mia could teach a lot of human bosses with MBAs a lot about leadership...
         

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