Pat or Clint

That is NOT what I stated after I admitted my mistake.(reading comprehension please)...I said that an Alpha has to be SOMEWHAT of a bully because at one point in time he/she had to earn all the other horses respect in the herd and needs to defend the herd from outside interference. Hence the words SOMEWHAT. A herd is not going to give someone the "lead" role just off one "look." At one point in time the alpha had to do something to get the respect of all the horses in the herd. Nh - I notice you want to tear me up and jump down my throat for my opinion yet jaydee is the one that said the alpha/lead has to be passive. I debated that and you jumped on ME. I didn't notice a correction aimed at jaydee. I see how it works around here. That's fine. Either that or you don't read everything and just like to show how smart you think you are or you just think you can bully new people to your point. Whatever. Again, I'm done with this thread.

And I was using Mark Rashids interpretation of a 'passive leader' so maybe take up your argument with him
I'm pretty sure that he uses the word passive as an opposite to aggressive/bully in the sense that the true herd leader doesnt need to be a bully or use aggression - this is behaviour seen in horses further down the pecking order and might even be a sign of a less confident horse being defensive. It doesnt mean that the alpha horse is some dopey thing that stands around and does nothing, though we have introduced several new horses to our small herd in the years since my oldest mare has been with us and though they may have challenged the others none have ever challenged her and she has never shown any violence towards them - her predecessor who was an 11.2 pony was exactly the same and she was in with 16.2 horses.
The alpha horse might even be recognised by its confidence and skills of perception as the others rely on that more for survival than they do on a horse that has a desire to attack - its rare for a horse to attack a predator as they are a fear/flight animal
As humans our best abilities over the horse is our superior intelligence and our confidence
A spooky nervous rider will almost always make a spooky nervous horse.
I have never needed to bully a horse into submission as its far better to make them rely on you, trust you and want to please you - and its not for the fact that I havent had some real b*****ds over the years
There is a huge difference in controlled discipline and teaching boundaries with horses and bullying them or lashing out in anger/temper which is what you see in that type of herd behaviour.
Our 'bully' mare is the most dependant on humans (and other horses) of all of ours. She doesnt have an aggressive or confrontational bone in her body where people are concerned and neither does her understudy.
You are also very wrong and totally out of order when you accuse any of us of ganging up on a new member - I'm sure that you will find threads where we have disagreed (and often very strongly) on other things.

Bsms...Thank you for posting that photo. I now have a serious case of home-in-the-desert envy.

On topic: I have gleened a lot of info from many different trainers (and life experiences). I have worked to have our horses respect me and in return I respect them.

I will now go practice my scooping skills.

Among other things. My favorite reason was one of his shows on RFD..I admit, I watch him. You just never know when someone will say something valuable...I'm still holding out hope he will.

Anyway.... He was riding his horse and leading anther to the trailer. His horse was BITING the one on the lead, and he was totally ok with this. Parelli said "she's playing the porcupine game with her teeth"...

I nearly fell over. I swear, I am not making this up.

That being said, I'm a Julie Goodnight and Clinton Anderson fan.

Yeah, but that is exactly what I am talking about. When natural herd dynamics are in play, the lead is NEVER the protector - or the enforcer. There are three primary positions in a herd - leader, enforcer, and protector, and the same horse doesn't do more than one job. In a small herd/confined environment they may, but that is only because of a restricted environment in herd size or confinement or both...

^^ OK. Three is a plenty big enough 'herd' for me, so I'll take your word for it!

But even with just 3 horses, their interaction involves a lot more subtlety and complexity than some things I've read would indicate. Horses aren't particularly logical, but they are smarter and more perceptive and have a greater range of interpersonal interaction than I originally believed. The longer I watch them, the more obvious it becomes that I have a lot to learn. I just find it interesting that my most fearful horse, by far, is also the one who will offer to protect the others, if need be.

No question about it. Interaction between horses is fascinating and complex. I've studied them all my life and still sometimes I see them doing things that puzzle me. 5 or 6 years ago I got hit by a tornado, and my "protector", a gelding that was my former stallion, rounded everyone up and stationed the herd in the middle of the pasture away from the barn and outbuildings and any trees (they heard it when it was 2 or 3 miles away, and I can only assume they reacted to an instinct triggered by either the sound or the rapid drop in barometric pressure), and they all faced into the tornado. Some of my outbuilding were demolished and coral panels and steel from the buildings was flying all over the place. They were untouched in the middle of the pasture. One thing I learned is if you see horses doing that, take cover. Personally, I think they communicate a lot more than even those of us that know them well think they do.

If they had stayed in their run-in barn, this is what they would have had to contend with...

Face that's interesting as we've often noticed that in really windy/stormy weather our horses will be sheltering 'by a fence post' and not under any trees.
bsms Mia sounds like a typical 'mother hen' - they are defenceless creatures until they have a brood of chicks and then they can turn into evil attackers if they think their young are under threat. I've seen normally terrified hens run at farm dogs, cats and humans

Don't wolves have a really structured pack regime?

I hate it when people ask others for their opinions, and then they get pissed off when we get brutally honest. I tried watching one episode of Pat's show, and I just couldn't get through it. I used Clinton's methods for halter breaking foals and for doing a lot of ground work with the rest of my horses. I never went into anything too extensive, and I still don't "follow" any of the trainers. When I'm stumped with something while I'm working with my horse, I'll go see what many people advise. Mainly, I just leave the rest up to instinct with the horse and myself. It's all very natural. Which, I believe, is where the term "natural horsemanship" came in. If you can't train your horse without keeping your head up some trainers butt the whole time, then what kind of horseman are you?
I don't mean to offend anyone who religiously follows Clinton, Pat, or any other trainer. That's just my honest opinion.

I like Parelli's halter. That's about it. My friend lent me one of his dumb overpriced DVD's and I would have been furious if I actually plunked money down on it. All he did was work a TRAINED horse through the 7 games and not a single moment of trouble shooting. I went back to the barn and stared at my Arab's hiney for 20 minutes and she yawned. I think DVD training is the most useless thing out there and COMPLETELY inappropriate for beginners. Beginners should have hands on coaching from a physical person to correct things as they happen. Thinking you can train a horse using only DVD's is like thinking you can get to Prix St Georges Dressage with only DVDs. At some point you NEED eyes and educated minds on the ground to guide you through your mistakes.

And it speaks volumes that the people swearing themselves to one trainer or another are the ones freaking out, throwing temper tantrums, name calling and (my favorite), calling real trainers "narrow minded" for daring to not like Pat or Clint or whoever else they don't deem necessary in their training program.

Guess what kids? It's called an opinion. You don't have to agree with it. You can disagree and walk away. But throwing temper tantrums because you refuse to see someone elses opinion only proves the point of what kind of people dedicate themselves to ONE trainer and refuse to see the intelligence of any others - a rank amateur who will never progress in the horse world.

Also, I have never liked how horses doing NH (mostly Parellis), ALWAYS have their ears pinned while working. And I mean PINNED like in that video. Some member on here tried explaining it away as "concentration" and its such hogwash. If a horse is running beside you with his ears FLAT AGAINST HIS HEAD - you're going to end up like the woman in the video at some point because that horse does NOT respect you.
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