Pat or Clint - Page 25 - The Horse Forum
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post #241 of 245 Old 03-21-2013, 06:28 PM
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One other thing I like about Clinton is that he uses problem horses or untrained horses for his videos and has a lot on problem solving. I respect him and his experience and like his methods-- UN-like Pat. I think of him just what the above poster says. However, I don't remotely follow just one trainer or one method, and my instructor with 50 years of experience is better than any of them, really, imo. Heck, she won the World Championship! (In western pleasure I believe.)

**I must not forget to thank the difficult horses, who made my life miserable, but who were better teachers than the well-behaved school horses who raised no problems.**
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post #242 of 245 Old 03-21-2013, 06:30 PM
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Being lead mare is pretty easy, but it is accomplished every day by leadership and trust. It takes milliseconds and clear body language.
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post #243 of 245 Old 03-25-2013, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by soenjer55 View Post
Frankly what little I know about Hempfling makes me like him, definitely more than Parelli or Anderson. I still don't like the idea of "playing" with a horse, personally, but like I said, there are still things in the video that I appreciate. He's obviously not new to horses and has quite a bit of experience tucked in there. I'm not going to set down any absolutes about him because, like you said, I don't know enough.
I am glad you write this, because if there is one thing Hempfling never does it is 'playing' in the sense of just tolling around, and he is very strongly advicing never to do so because it is really dangerous. He is 100% aware the whole time that every split second is ful of serious meant signals from the horse, and if you read them wrong and react in a way that makes the horse think that you are no longer the alpha, you are in trouble. He works very much with dominance, but he does have a different definition of that word. I guess it is a bit off topic, and I guess it is my fault (sorry folks ) but Hempflings latest essay onj his facebook page describes wonderfully how different he perceives the horse (he also wrote a lot about dominance not so long ago), and I think that is where many people do not understand his approach - he would agree with more of what has been said here than people would expect I beleive, but he simply 'saddles the horse from the other side' if you know what I mean. In any case I do insist that horses which are trained by predator methods might function, might seem nice and well educated, but they are NOT having a deep bond with their human being and they are NOT partocularly happy horses. And I find that sad!
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post #244 of 245 Old 03-25-2013, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
I guess you have to decide for yourself if you want to be the true alpha leader that your horse trusts and relies on in all situations and so follows willingly because it sees you as its leader
If you want to be the bully that you see as the alpha which is the horse the others run away from and avoid and would prefer not to follow but to be as far away from as possible
I have a 'bully' amongst my 'herd' of five and she is most definitely not the leader when it comes down to it. She may push the others away from food but she lacks confidence in 'scarey' situations and is totally dependant on the calm reliable passive alpha mare to give the lead - and when this mare wants what she wants she just walks quietly through and they all move away and let her - I have never once seen her attack another horse or even look mean, she just somehow commands respect - maybe because they all know in their own 'horsey way' thats she's the one they all rely on and so cant do without.
This should be a clip from a longer video where Mark Rashid explains very well how a herd actually works. Ignore the bit tacked on the end as not relevant.
Alpha or bully? - YouTube
I think you are right that the true leader never really has the need to fight, because the others instinctively know whan they come accross another horse of genuine alpha-character (that is why Hempfling encourages us to develop true leadership qualities - Rashid says the same and also works with similar principles, though their way separate when it comes to the groundwork/riding). The bully, or the somewhat bully - comes down to the same - might have arned some respect at a ceryain point in time because the others know that it is a bully, but it will never become the real leader of the herd, unless of course the herd is without horse of leadership capacity, which is often the case in our domesticated mini herds - in that case the bully might look like it's the leader.
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post #245 of 245 Old 03-25-2013, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by equitate View Post
Hempling does not start out with what he is doing loose, there is much training in hand first. Imho what he does is NOT for beginners who cannot read behaviors/responses in DEPTH.He makes it LOOK easy because he is experienced in PROGRESSIVE training. But the question is why do work loose? It is safer for horse and rider to train for purpose (which should be riding), and keep control. Anything else really ends up (sadly) being for market share, to impress non horsemen to buy products. What he does is a basis for future training (whether it is circus work or riding). The rest is circus (my mom did that as a child) but often does not play into a more useful riding horses per se. Too many people do not understand that horses are equine, not human. They are only doing what they would do with other horses, too many amorphisize them to humans. He knows not to do that, but is humble in their presence as well.
I have seen Hempfling work with horses he never saw before and he does start out loose (but of course inside an arena until he and the horse have bonded deeply enough for doing the same outside) - always, because that is the best way how he can make clear to the horse that he is the leader without putting any pressure on it. There are phases later on where he uses a slack rope on a normal stable halter to introduce the leading, but he continues working the horse loose most of the time, in between phases of lunging again with that slack rope. This latest video from him shows the steps (in short flashes of course - otherwise it would hae been very long because he uses a LOT OF TIME), but this is the way he does it:
. There is nothing fake about his presentation of his procedure. But he has been working a lot with himself and his physical/mental awareness etc. and that is what you don't see in his videos! But well, I think I did now go enough off topic - i will stop and let you continue discussing Pat and Clint...but I still do not fancy any of them together with a horse - sorry but I think we human beings can do much better than that!
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Last edited by dknatura; 03-25-2013 at 07:50 AM.
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