What kind of craziness has entered my ears this time.. - The Horse Forum

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post #1 of 36 Old 07-01-2013, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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What kind of craziness has entered my ears this time..

Another question for you all, regarding a trainer I recently watched train her horses.

She believed that it is more beneficial to a horses success, to do most of it's training at the end of a line. All she would really do is long line the horse in a round pen. She claimed it taught softness and acceptance of the bridle, even though the horse would pull like heck at the end of the lines.
Then for the riding, she would use a western saddle on saddle seat horses since it is better for their back. In addition, the horse would have a twisted wire bit in (which changed ride to ride, never the same, consistent bit), with the reins running through a martingale, similar to this: Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Perfection Training Martingale
On top of that, there would be draw reins. The rider would have 2 sets of reins.

Now tell me, is this kind of training, actually good training? Because all that runs through my mind is that the martingale and draw reins are creating holes in the training, and that the lunging is killing the horses joints and mouth for that matter..
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post #2 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 06:55 AM
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Inconsistency is bad. If she's supposed to be teaching softness and acceptance, an the horses always pull, then she's not teaching very effectively, sounds like. I think martingales and draw reins have their place, and their place is not all the time every time. Honestly I can't say I'm a fan of this trainer's methods at all, and that's putting it lightly.
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post #3 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 08:50 AM
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Does the martingale have the running attachment as well or is it more like this
http://images02.sstack.weblinc.com/r...446.a.zoom.jpg

The draw reins seem excessive, I agree. The twisted snaffle may also be excessive if she's being rough with it. Long lining itself is not a bad thing and useful for "riding" a horse without actually riding. I know many trainers that will long line prior to riding, especially young/green horses and as a random refresher with the seasoned horses. The Western saddle in place of the cutback is irrelevant for the most part. I do agree that she's missing something if the horse is still pulling with no overall improvement. I always ride/school with a martingale like the one I posted, but it has 10 rings for flexibility. My horse is also young, green, and can get his head high if he's frustrated or working through something. That makes it more difficult to help him work through it if I'm trying to not get knocked out.
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post #4 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SEAmom View Post
Does the martingale have the running attachment as well or is it more like this
http://images02.sstack.weblinc.com/r...446.a.zoom.jpg

The draw reins seem excessive, I agree. The twisted snaffle may also be excessive if she's being rough with it. Long lining itself is not a bad thing and useful for "riding" a horse without actually riding. I know many trainers that will long line prior to riding, especially young/green horses and as a random refresher with the seasoned horses. The Western saddle in place of the cutback is irrelevant for the most part. I do agree that she's missing something if the horse is still pulling with no overall improvement. I always ride/school with a martingale like the one I posted, but it has 10 rings for flexibility. My horse is also young, green, and can get his head high if he's frustrated or working through something. That makes it more difficult to help him work through it if I'm trying to not get knocked out.
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Yeah it's a martingale like that. I went over to ride my friends horse, and I was expecting a cutback saddle and the double bridle I used to ride the horse in, and they threw all this stuff on. I was completely dumbfounded.

The trainer herself is VERY rough on the horses' mouths, so I really don't see how these horses improve. The horse I rode did have a load of improvement from the last time I rode her, but I'm waiting for one day when they don't have all the "extra" junk on, and something goes wrong.

As for the long lining, it seemed like it was just something to take the place of actual riding. With my knowledge of their trainer, they long lined probably over 85% of the time, and the rest was riding. Now as for my horse, long lining and riding would be 2 completely different things. My horse as an individual, it wouldn't matter if he was a perfect horse under long lining, I would still have to work hard under saddle to keep him good.

Maybe it's just me personally that sees a problem with this training method since the whole time I've been into horses, I trained only under saddle.. Who knows
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post #5 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 10:04 AM
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I personally think long lining a horse is very beneficial. I also see nothing wrong with using that type of martingale. I do think anyone that is jerking on a horses mouth has issues but... I guess I would have to see it first hand to make any statements about that. I think working a horse in more then one way is beneficial but one must also be consistent in the way the horse is worked. You can do that and still work from the ground and the horses back.
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post #6 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 11:42 AM
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Just based on your description, you couldn't pay me enough money to let her touch one of my horses.

Sure, martingales and draw reins and twisted bits have their place, but not all together and not on every single horse...not even on most horses.

It sounds like she's just one that "trains" through brute force and while I'm not a touchy-feely trainer, I completely disagree with most of what she's said.

The whole thing about long-lining is semi-true. It does greatly benefit a horse...if done correctly. Allowing the horse to pull on the lines all the time is only teaching the horse to have a hard mouth and be resistant.

Whether a western saddle is better on their back or not is debatable. The only thing a western saddle does differently than an english style is to spread the weight over more surface area...but it depends on whether the saddle actually fits or not.

Always remember that feeling of looking at a big, open country over the ears of a good horse, seeing a new trail unwind ahead of you, and that ever-spectacular view from the top of the ridge!!! Follow my training blog: http://robertsontraining.blogspot.com/
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post #7 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 01:28 PM
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When the horse is pulling on the lunge, have you noticed it's head is turned away. It wants out of there. When it presents it's jaw it's attention on the handler is gone. She needs to rethink how she does this to keep the horse focused on forward movement, not fighting her. With her choice of bits and martingale she is attempting a head set but it is a false one. A good head set starts with the engine and collection with finesse from the bridle.
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post #8 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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She wanted me to be one of her stablehands, and after seeing all that, I told her I would think about it.. I never talked to her again.

Another thing she did, while trainer her halter horse, was unimaginable. She would have a chain on him, and carry a long lunge whip. She would go to set the horse up, and when he was stretching good (to my standards) she would yank on the chain to get his attention on her. If his ears went back or he still wasn't "perfect" the lunge whip would be snapped at his sides... This horse had PURE TERROR in his eyes, and was scared to death to be near her.. I've never seen something so terrible in my life
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post #9 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by KylieHuitema View Post
She wanted me to be one of her stablehands, and after seeing all that, I told her I would think about it.. I never talked to her again.

Another thing she did, while trainer her halter horse, was unimaginable. She would have a chain on him, and carry a long lunge whip. She would go to set the horse up, and when he was stretching good (to my standards) she would yank on the chain to get his attention on her. If his ears went back or he still wasn't "perfect" the lunge whip would be snapped at his sides... This horse had PURE TERROR in his eyes, and was scared to death to be near her.. I've never seen something so terrible in my life
Oooooh, this is making my blood boil!! How awesome it would be if an Animal Control Officer had been "discretely and anonymously" (are you following me here?) called to witness this act.....
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post #10 of 36 Old 07-02-2013, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Oooooh, this is making my blood boil!! How awesome it would be if an Animal Control Officer had been "discretely and anonymously" (are you following me here?) called to witness this act.....

If I return there, I probably will. My friend didn't even blink an eye at this since she's been around it so long. I hate how all these unacceptable things be considered acceptable when its done by someone higher than you.
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