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What kind of craziness has entered my ears this time..

This is a discussion on What kind of craziness has entered my ears this time.. within the Horse Trainers forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        07-03-2013, 12:22 AM
      #11
    Started
    That last one I'm not sure why any blood would boil, but I know different people have different opinions. I think it's probably a good idea not to work with her in the long run, though!
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        07-03-2013, 11:03 AM
      #12
    Foal
    Do you have much experience around a saddle seat training barn? I ask, because most of what you describe is not unusual and when done correctly not in the least bit cruel.

    Long-lining a young horse for a short period of time is very common and IS very good for teaching the horse to give to the bit and learn voice commands before introducing a saddle. Most are actually driven as the next step in training, prior to riding, to build additional muscle before introducing a riders weight.

    A running martingale with two sets of reins are also standard training equipment. Saddle seat horses are usually only ridden in a double bridle a couple times a week to keep them fresh and responsive to it.

    Adding draw reins on top of a running martingale is not normal. (I've never seen that type of set-up used..never). Are you sure that is what you saw? If so, that would be excessive.

    Twisted wire snaffle (or a double twisted wire snaffle) also normal and in the proper hands nothing wrong with it. Should not be used roughly. We like the horse to be light and response in the bridle, not hanging on the bit.

    Western saddle on a young horse, also normal in a lot of barns...just easier to deal with any young horse shenanigans.

    Chain over the nose, normal..just keeps the horses attention on the handler when used correctly. Cracking a whip near a horse to focus it's attention also not unusual. Was the horse plunging around out of control on the end of the line or just alert and on his toes? There is a difference. I am betting the horse was just alert (wide-eyed). It would make no sense to crack a whip near a horse that was truely scared.

    Just some things to think about. None of these training practices are cruel or unusual when done properly...just may look unusual if you have never seen them or understand the purpose.
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        07-03-2013, 04:12 PM
      #13
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cb06    
    Do you have much experience around a saddle seat training barn? I ask, because most of what you describe is not unusual and when done correctly not in the least bit cruel.

    Long-lining a young horse for a short period of time is very common and IS very good for teaching the horse to give to the bit and learn voice commands before introducing a saddle. Most are actually driven as the next step in training, prior to riding, to build additional muscle before introducing a riders weight.

    A running martingale with two sets of reins are also standard training equipment. Saddle seat horses are usually only ridden in a double bridle a couple times a week to keep them fresh and responsive to it.

    Adding draw reins on top of a running martingale is not normal. (I've never seen that type of set-up used..never). Are you sure that is what you saw? If so, that would be excessive.

    Twisted wire snaffle (or a double twisted wire snaffle) also normal and in the proper hands nothing wrong with it. Should not be used roughly. We like the horse to be light and response in the bridle, not hanging on the bit.

    Western saddle on a young horse, also normal in a lot of barns...just easier to deal with any young horse shenanigans.

    Chain over the nose, normal..just keeps the horses attention on the handler when used correctly. Cracking a whip near a horse to focus it's attention also not unusual. Was the horse plunging around out of control on the end of the line or just alert and on his toes? There is a difference. I am betting the horse was just alert (wide-eyed). It would make no sense to crack a whip near a horse that was truely scared.

    Just some things to think about. None of these training practices are cruel or unusual when done properly...just may look unusual if you have never seen them or understand the purpose.

    The martingale was like the one pictured, with regular reins through it. The draw reins are seperate. They told me what they were doing while tacking up, and said that the draw reins would help my dressage horse with his head. I just said uh-huh. This trainer is not light handed. A lot of jerking goes on when riding the horses, and when I rode one, she said I wasn't jerking hard enough, while my hand were hurting.

    The long lining I for sure know about was being done on a 18 year old mare, that has minor joint problems. They jerk on their mouths while doing that too.

    With the halter training, the chain was under the nose, so whenever the chain was yanked HARD, the horse threw it's head up in pain and fear. The whip was making contact, multiple times. At the end of the session, there was lines from the whip down his side. This horse was not "alert", he was terrified. When she was walking back to his stall, I could tell how stressed and fearful he was just by how he was walking. This was by no means "training", this was downright cruelty. I know it happens in other barns, but it was like really? The trainer had 2 stablehands watching and learning that this was right.

    At the arab shows I go to, I'm fine with people chasing their horses with plastic bags, because it's not making contact. But whips? Unacceptable
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        07-03-2013, 04:46 PM
      #14
    Started
    I get my horse's sides and front legs with the halter whip when we're doing halter work, too. Any halter trainer I've seen does this. Not welt hard, but you still see lines. We use the chain under the jaw for practice, and there's a chain on the show halter as well. I've had to jerk pretty hard on many chains on many horses. They're much bigger andi want them thinking at all times that I'm the boss no matter what.
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        07-03-2013, 06:59 PM
      #15
    Started
    I find that a peppermint wrapper gets that wide eyed excited look better than anything scary, and gentle tugs and taps and lots of repetition are easier to understand when teaching them to park out. That is such an easy thing to teach, it saddens me to hear it and see it. You won't read techniques like that in Jim Aikman's(THE baby guy in Saddlebreds) training manuals. Being gentle also makes that situation when you have to snatch them around, or smack them, or anything of the sort much more effective. If all they know is jerking and snatching and whipping, then the horse won't know the difference.
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        07-03-2013, 07:18 PM
      #16
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KylieHuitema    
    The martingale was like the one pictured, with regular reins through it. The draw reins are seperate. They told me what they were doing while tacking up, and said that the draw reins would help my dressage horse with his head. I just said uh-huh. This trainer is not light handed. A lot of jerking goes on when riding the horses, and when I rode one, she said I wasn't jerking hard enough, while my hand were hurting.

    The long lining I for sure know about was being done on a 18 year old mare, that has minor joint problems. They jerk on their mouths while doing that too.

    With the halter training, the chain was under the nose, so whenever the chain was yanked HARD, the horse threw it's head up in pain and fear. The whip was making contact, multiple times. At the end of the session, there was lines from the whip down his side. This horse was not "alert", he was terrified. When she was walking back to his stall, I could tell how stressed and fearful he was just by how he was walking. This was by no means "training", this was downright cruelty. I know it happens in other barns, but it was like really? The trainer had 2 stablehands watching and learning that this was right.

    At the arab shows I go to, I'm fine with people chasing their horses with plastic bags, because it's not making contact. But whips? Unacceptable
    I hope with all my heart you can just get out of that place soon - there's no one in the world that can convince me this is nothing more than abuse. Firmness is one thing, abusing a horse is another. Shame on her for inflicting such pain on these beautiful horses.
         
        07-03-2013, 07:55 PM
      #17
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northernstar    
    I hope with all my heart you can just get out of that place soon - there's no one in the world that can convince me this is nothing more than abuse. Firmness is one thing, abusing a horse is another. Shame on her for inflicting such pain on these beautiful horses.
    I will never go back. As much as I would like to ride and show those arabs, I will not watch her abuse them ever again, without calling animal control
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        07-04-2013, 08:11 PM
      #18
    Super Moderator
    You need to decide what type of horses handling and training you want to be involved in. What you are describing is very typical of what I have seen at some well-known high placing Saddlebred and Arabian Barns. I trained Arabians to ride Western and showed at the Arabian Nationals in Stock Horse (actually just Arabian reining at that time) and trail and I refused to show halter horses or ride Park or English horses. I hated the methods and I hated the results and had nothing to do with them.

    In the early 'pre Doc Bar' days I also refused to work on or around cutting horses and still will not work around some cutting horse trainers. All of the 'old' trainers and way too many of the current ones do not think they are getting enough done if blood is not running down a horse's shoulders when they get off.

    If you want to know why the old cutting horse trainers hated palomino and gray horses (only rode sorrels, bays, browns and blacks), it is because the blood and the scars showed too easily on them. Most of the 'flunk-outs' I got from cutting trainers had life-long scars on their shoulders.

    You get involved and you learn methods doing things you like and handling and training the kinds of horses you like. If you hate racing --- don't get involved in the business. If you hate the methods you are describing --- stay away from Saddleseat Arabian and Saddlebred trainers. If you do not like World class Western Pleasure horses, stay out of the business. If you find the practices unacceptable that are used with the 'big lick' Walking Horses, stay away from the Walking Horse Show barns and stay out of the business.

    You will find that 'a horse' is not just 'a horse'. The 'specialized horses' showing in the 'specialized events' all have their extreme methods that are unacceptable to many horse enthusiasts. Most, like myself, gravitate to the kinds of horses, uses and methods that we like. I am perfectly happy training ranch horses, cow horses and good trail horses. Life is too short (and you would not get good at it anyway) to train for events you do not like or use methods you do not want to use.

    If you want to get into any kind of high level showing, spend a bunch of time around the shows and pay a lot of attention to what you see in the warm-up pens and in the back lots and unwatched area. You will see what it is taking to be competitive in that event. It will not look like the pretty finished horses you see in the show ring. You will find what it takes to be competitive in that event and you will have to decide if it is what you want.
         
        07-08-2013, 04:10 PM
      #19
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KylieHuitema    
    Another question for you all, regarding a trainer I recently watched train her horses.

    She believed that it is more beneficial to a horses success, to do most of it's training at the end of a line. All she would really do is long line the horse in a round pen. She claimed it taught softness and acceptance of the bridle, even though the horse would pull like heck at the end of the lines.
    Then for the riding, she would use a western saddle on saddle seat horses since it is better for their back. In addition, the horse would have a twisted wire bit in (which changed ride to ride, never the same, consistent bit), with the reins running through a martingale, similar to this: Winner's Circle Horse Supplies, Saddlebred and Gaited Horse Specialists - Perfection Training Martingale
    On top of that, there would be draw reins. The rider would have 2 sets of reins.

    Now tell me, is this kind of training, actually good training? Because all that runs through my mind is that the martingale and draw reins are creating holes in the training, and that the lunging is killing the horses joints and mouth for that matter..
    That doesnt sound like someone I would want to send my horse to. You should always be starting a horse with a very gentle bit and work your way up if needed, but never start off with a twist of any kind. Martingale? It sounds to me like this trainer is afraid to get on a green horse and afraid to lose control. Drawn reins are a training aid for horses who are seasoned and used for warmups or fine tuning, not a brand new green horse who isn't broke to ride. Even tho I agree lunging serves a purpose, it should not be the main method of training when breaking a horse to ride.

    This trainer sounds scary. I suggest finding someone else love.
         
        07-08-2013, 04:48 PM
      #20
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by My2Geldings    
    That doesnt sound like someone I would want to send my horse to. You should always be starting a horse with a very gentle bit and work your way up if needed, but never start off with a twist of any kind. Martingale? It sounds to me like this trainer is afraid to get on a green horse and afraid to lose control. Drawn reins are a training aid for horses who are seasoned and used for warmups or fine tuning, not a brand new green horse who isn't broke to ride. Even tho I agree lunging serves a purpose, it should not be the main method of training when breaking a horse to ride.

    This trainer sounds scary. I suggest finding someone else love.
    I am staying far, far away from her. She invited me and my friend on a trail ride, and my eyes just got wide.. I was only imagining her riding her horse with the draw reins and martingale on a trail ride.. I politely declined.
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