Your opinion on Parelli - Page 11 - The Horse Forum
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post #101 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Wanstrom Horses View Post
I dont care for CA either. But Pat is a bad rider. He's choppy, has no finesse and is constantly yanking on their mouth. In all of the videos I've watched of him. and the horses that I have retrained that were started by Parelli certified trainers relied on contact to function. I couldn't get the horses to lope without pulling back on their mouths first. In the western world, a horse shouldn't do that. It's the exact opposite of the correct way. In a western training world, we strive to have our horses respond to the slightest cue. There are better trainers out there. Pat marketed himself good with big words and the micro-analyzation of the horse's every move. It isnt that complicated. I would think a trainer with that big of name and that many followers would strive a little better to improve his riding and responsiveness of his horses. But "he's Pat Parelli, he must know it all". And he sure thinks he does.. Its sad that people will follow someone with that poor of hands..
Odd as he strongly suggests that you can do many many patterns with your horse with no contact even on the halter, let alone bit. Freestyle riding he calls it which means end of the buckle or bridle-less. Only when these patterns are good and solid do you start taking up a contact at all.
Could it be that those trainers you encountered were too impatient to do the foundation properly ?
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post #102 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 02:54 PM
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Honestly not my favorite but not the worst I've seen.
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post #103 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dame Nuit View Post
LOL! that's surely the reason why you tie them tight with hobbles : to micro-analyze the way they move! And you think you're the one who can tell who has à poor technic...
You're really funny!
Not entirely sure what you are talking about...

~Started young horses in Bosca te Ador, unto the two rein the old Spanish spade, brought them along with two hands that were gentle. Some fine reining horses as ever were made~
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post #104 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Pegasus1 View Post
Odd as he strongly suggests that you can do many many patterns with your horse with no contact even on the halter, let alone bit. Freestyle riding he calls it which means end of the buckle or bridle-less. Only when these patterns are good and solid do you start taking up a contact at all.
Could it be that those trainers you encountered were too impatient to do the foundation properly ?
Possibly, but as certified Parelli trainers, Im not seeing anything great in his so called "horsemanship"
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~Started young horses in Bosca te Ador, unto the two rein the old Spanish spade, brought them along with two hands that were gentle. Some fine reining horses as ever were made~
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post #105 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Pegasus1 View Post
Do you realise how few trainers there are who are not associated with a clinician or the BHS ? If you have your sort of experience you probably don't need a trainer and can tell a good trainer from a bad one. If you don't have that experience then you can't make that judgement so easily. As a result, having seen some "independent" trainers at my yard ("that's it kick him hard now, keep kicking, keep kicking, ok use the whip"!! no exaggeration, I heard it a week ago ) I don't want to get involved.
Whatever you may think of Pat I have been very impressed by the standard of instructors his program produces, especially the ones with 2 stars or more. And I do know good instruction when I see it having been a professional flying instructor for many years. Therefore I would prefer to stick with instructors trained and monitored by his program than take pot luck on an independent.
I could go down the BHS instructors route, but a) they do not promote the kind of lightness in riding I like and b) they are most certainly not "natural".
If that is all you have to chose from where you are I feel really bad for the horses. Around here there are plenty of good proven trainers. Just with in a few hours I have a multi million $$ trainer and a lot of other well proven trainers.

Finding a good trainer it not that hard. Even for a newer rider. All you have to do is be willing to do your homework and spend a bit of money on one. You get what you pay for. Too many people seem to think they can do it on their own with just a DVD or the net to help them out. To this day I still use trainers for my horses.

I have yet to see a PP certified trainer that I would let swing a leg over one of my finished horses let along train one.
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post #106 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Pegasus1 View Post
Odd as he strongly suggests that you can do many many patterns with your horse with no contact even on the halter, let alone bit. Freestyle riding he calls it which means end of the buckle or bridle-less. Only when these patterns are good and solid do you start taking up a contact at all.
Could it be that those trainers you encountered were too impatient to do the foundation properly ?
Yet I have not seen a single time where he is actually doing this. All I see is him yanking on horses or sticking his carrot sick in their face to get them to move over or do anything.
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-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
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post #107 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 04:47 PM
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I feel that there are many issues which must be discerned to the question of whether PNH is good, bad or indifferent:

1. Marketing hype question (btw, "revolutionary" was not referring to horsemanship in the quote, it was referring to the heart & mind of the student - a revolution in the heart & mind.)

2. Whether dvd's/written material are workable for every student, sans a real live instructor being there with the student.

They HAVE worked for thousands of students, happily, for their horses, many of whom were facing an uncertain future prior to PNH. This is FACT, which must be acknowledged. It's not to say that some other program properly applied would've done as well, but all of the programs that those horses HAD BEEN put through HADN'T worked (whether independent "trainers" or big-name clinicians).

3. Whether some certified PNH instructors were given certification unjustifiably, thus giving PNH a bad rep.

4. Whether the program is too costly.

5. Whether the PP's cover up their horsemanship errors with smoke & mirrors (Catwalk, Barney, etc.)

6. Whether the PP's cover up their husbandry errors with smoke & mirrors (Westfall's fatal accident while not being ridden, rumor of their watering program causing deaths of two-three horses who were last to get to the water each time because low in hierarchy, Remmer being allowed to get overweight & develop hoof problems, their star horses disappearing from the headlines, their horses being retired too early, etc.)

7. Whether the PP's exaggerate about their success with horses, (others trained them prior to PP's, but the story is that the horses were killers & all success is due to the PP's, e.g.)

8. Whether their students have a cultic devotion to PNH, leading to protection of them rather than honest answers, etc.

9. Whether the HORSEMANSHIP (it's in there somewhere ;) is truly solid, ALL the way through, including from the point that Linda started assuming authority to bring her own "epiphanies" to the table for inclusion into the official program.

10. Whether Pat has allowed Linda to do the above, EVEN THOUGH SHE HAS ERRED in her directives, & allowed these errors into the program, for the sake of the marriage or whatever reason. Case in point: Level 2, "sit heavily on your horse in back-up". Pat HAD to have known that this was false, yet it's in Level 2. Several years went by before Linda slid in a correction on that, in a Savvy Club dvd.

10. Whether such corrections have been handled appropriately (how many missed the SC dvd correction & are still sitting heavily to back?)

11. Whether other instructors whom they bring on board (latest is bio-mechanical "expert" Colleen Kelly) are themselves qualified.

And so on. :)
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post #108 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern View Post
...Marketing hype question (btw, "revolutionary" was not referring to horsemanship in the quote, it was referring to the heart & mind of the student - a revolution in the heart & mind.)...
I disagree.

From their website:
For those who want to understand horses and learn the revolutionary Parelli Program for natural horse training,

One of the magical results of Parelli natural horse training method

Linda Parelli has spent the last five years immersing herself in the world of dressage, discovering ways of applying natural horsemanship principles to the world outside of Parelli...Linda shares her revolutionary work in horse psychology, as well as sharing the secret to achieving contact in her Game of Contact sessions.

Linda Parelli has decoded the secret of teaching “contact”, the elastic connection between horse and rider via the bit. Discovering this method after years of trying to get her Dutch Warmblood, Remmer, to enjoy and understand contact...
They are calling the Parelli SYSTEM revolutionary. Linda did revolutionary work in horse psychology. She's discovering how to teach horses to ride with contact!

Those are not the words of someone saying, "I learned a lot from some great guys, and when I share it with you, YOUR life will be revolutionized!" IMHO.

"Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing...well, ignore it mostly."
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post #109 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern View Post
I feel that there are many issues which must be discerned to the question of whether PNH is good, bad or indifferent:

1. Marketing hype question (btw, "revolutionary" was not referring to horsemanship in the quote, it was referring to the heart & mind of the student - a revolution in the heart & mind.)

2. Whether dvd's/written material are workable for every student, sans a real live instructor being there with the student.

They HAVE worked for thousands of students, happily, for their horses, many of whom were facing an uncertain future prior to PNH. This is FACT, which must be acknowledged. It's not to say that some other program properly applied would've done as well, but all of the programs that those horses HAD BEEN put through HADN'T worked (whether independent "trainers" or big-name clinicians).

3. Whether some certified PNH instructors were given certification unjustifiably, thus giving PNH a bad rep.

4. Whether the program is too costly.

5. Whether the PP's cover up their horsemanship errors with smoke & mirrors (Catwalk, Barney, etc.)

6. Whether the PP's cover up their husbandry errors with smoke & mirrors (Westfall's fatal accident while not being ridden, rumor of their watering program causing deaths of two-three horses who were last to get to the water each time because low in hierarchy, Remmer being allowed to get overweight & develop hoof problems, their star horses disappearing from the headlines, their horses being retired too early, etc.)

7. Whether the PP's exaggerate about their success with horses, (others trained them prior to PP's, but the story is that the horses were killers & all success is due to the PP's, e.g.)

8. Whether their students have a cultic devotion to PNH, leading to protection of them rather than honest answers, etc.

9. Whether the HORSEMANSHIP (it's in there somewhere ;) is truly solid, ALL the way through, including from the point that Linda started assuming authority to bring her own "epiphanies" to the table for inclusion into the official program.

10. Whether Pat has allowed Linda to do the above, EVEN THOUGH SHE HAS ERRED in her directives, & allowed these errors into the program, for the sake of the marriage or whatever reason. Case in point: Level 2, "sit heavily on your horse in back-up". Pat HAD to have known that this was false, yet it's in Level 2. Several years went by before Linda slid in a correction on that, in a Savvy Club dvd.

10. Whether such corrections have been handled appropriately (how many missed the SC dvd correction & are still sitting heavily to back?)

11. Whether other instructors whom they bring on board (latest is bio-mechanical "expert" Colleen Kelly) are themselves qualified.

And so on. :)
That's too many ifs, ands, buts, and whethers for me. Pat really only made it to success, like a stated again with good marketing. And a vast majority of backyard trainers that follow..

~Started young horses in Bosca te Ador, unto the two rein the old Spanish spade, brought them along with two hands that were gentle. Some fine reining horses as ever were made~
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post #110 of 402 Old 01-22-2013, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dame Nuit View Post
LOL! that's surely the reason why you tie them tight with hobbles : to micro-analyze the way they move! And you think you're the one who can tell who has à poor technic...
You're really funny!
And if you look into it more, it isn't "tying them tight with hobbles", still not exactly sure what that means. I can tie a simple little string around my horses front legs and they don't move. It's training them to yield to pressure on their legs. If that's poor horsemanship, then everyone had better quit halter breaking their horses because it's the same concept. It's the only way you can train a horse to not cut themselves to ribbons if they get caught in a fence. But that must be poor horsemanship too huh? So must having a horse so light in the face that they move with the lift of a rein. That must be really poor technique also. I know what works for the horses I ride, and Pats complicated, fluffy methods and his overall terrible seat and hands doesn't work.. Seems pretty funny to me..

~Started young horses in Bosca te Ador, unto the two rein the old Spanish spade, brought them along with two hands that were gentle. Some fine reining horses as ever were made~
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