Your opinion on Parelli - Page 33 - The Horse Forum
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post #321 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by gypsygirl View Post
give me a break, padronas post has none of that mentality at all....
I can only think what he thinks by what is typed and that is what he typed. SO ya that is what I think he means.
good for you for having some knowledge of something you dislike. can you honestly say that PP knows nothing or cant teach you a single thing you didnt think of before ?

I have yet to find anything new and meaningful from his program. What is new like his horseanality deal is just crap. Let see if we can figure out how a horse feels. Like they are human or something.

i will say again, i dont have strong feelings either way about PP, but come on you guys. be a bit more open minded.
Was open minded way back when then started to see the end results of the PP System. Have yet to find a good example of a PP trained horse from a DVD
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post #322 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Pegasus1 View Post
Well that started on a positive note didn't it, with an immediate attack on James Roberts as inexperienced and reckless. In fact he was anything but inexperienced and reckless.
He was experienced enough that he was invited to take part in public colt starting demos in the USA.
He introduced me into the idea of a thorough "prepare to ride" session prior to getting on a horse, even a well trained one. Not exactly reckless.
I guess we will never get over this attack on each others ideas which is a great shame as it could be a very progressive forum.
Maybe a better response would have been "that's an interesting idea, do you have a video of it to share ?"
Ah well, I tried :(
I think if you re-read my post I said that James was a very capable young man but if he hadn'r jumped on the PP bandwagon he would be in exactly the same position as all the other very capable young horse people in the UK - just making a living. he was smart - he saw a chance and grabbed it
I know nothing about the US style of 'colt breaking' so cant comment on that at all - I dont know if it runs in the same way as traditional UK breaking methods or not
Removing a headcollar from a first time backed horse is extremely reckless. Its not just endangering the rider but remember this - a horse will always retain bad experiences more than good ones because thats part of the learning curve of self preservation instinct - same with humans too but horses lack the ability to reason things logically. For eg - If a bombproof horse in traffic has an accident it will forget all the safe times and really struggle to accept that traffic isn't dangerous and often never be safe on the roads again.
UK style - By the time a horse is backed it should be comfortable with moving forwards at all paces on the lunge with no force -tacked up with enough restriction on the reins to its bit or to a headcollar that it would feel if a rider were holding them. The first time I get on I just have someone leg me up and I lie across the horses back. I will do this enough times, wrigging around, patting the horse firmly as I lie there so its used to movement. I then have someone capable lead the horse a few steps forward so it gets the idea of moving with a weight on its back.
Next step - I have someone leg me up onto the horse - no feet in the stirrups at this stage but I take up light contact on the reins and if the horse is happy they lead the horse forwards. This is repeated until the horse is relaxed - usually in the first session if all the previous stages were done properly. I will then ride the horse on the lunge a few times and if all goes well its then ridden off the lunge and the gradual schooling process begins
Done correctly from day 1 with an average horse this might only take a week - less in a horse thats been well handled from birth
You get it wrong at this stage and the horse can be mentally scarred for life and if its your job then you cant afford to risk getting hurt and losing business while you recover
The horses that I've had that refused to move forwards the first time were the ones that struggled to accept having a rider on them but maintained self control by standing still - pressure to force them to move almost always results in an explosion - it had nothing to do with having a headcollar on if the previous stages had been done correctly, they just need more time to accept the weight and feel.
Not knowing things like that is a sign of inexperience
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post #323 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Padrona View Post
I have learned how to think in a "we" frame of mind instead of an "I tell you, and you respond accordingly."

I give you my word: From the first time I got on Mia's back, I had no doubt but that I wasn't alone, and that Mia had an opinion on everything. When we go out in the desert alone, I don't tell folks "I'm going out alone". I say, "We're going out..." - because I'm with Mia. She isn't a dirtbike. And I know the difference. That is what got me hooked on riding. As bad a choice as she was for a beginner's horse, the fact that I was WITH her and not just ON something made a big difference.

NO, it's not spoiling the horse, or allowing them to control and run over you. But it's more of a positive way to think and direct the horse. "Let's do this together." "Why don't we try this." Instead of "Move your feet over there because I told you to do it." The latter isn't abuse. It's not harsh training. But it's the way 99% of us deal with our horses.

And rightly so, I think. My goal is a bond with my horse: MY MIND, HER MUSCLE. We don't get there very often, although it is pretty awesome when we do. And it makes her happy, because she WANTS to know someone smarter than her is thinking about threats. It allows her to relax.

That doesn't mean I want her unaware of things. If she spots a rattlesnake, I want to know! And if I spot a loose dog, I'll let her know. But I need her to accept MY decision about rattlesnakes and loose dogs and javelina and kids on bicycles. If she won't accept my decision on when to run and when to stop, she can kill both of us.

We think that to be an alpha over them, we have to dictate things to them like alpha her members do. But that's not actually what we want. We need the leadership position, but it has to be a TEAM mentality...

In the horses I've got, and I've only got 3, physical dominance is only a part of being the lead. Mia is the lead in part because she's willing to kick the butt of those that defy her...but she is also the lead because she is fair. She is constantly watching over them. When they get scared, they rely on Mia for her judgment, not for her muscle. It is her total approach that makes her the lead and not just the bully.

That is what I think 'natural' horsemanship is about. Not being a bully, but being the lead. And that includes being tough - when appropriate.

...But just changing what's in your heart changes the outcome.

Nope. Too many folks want to ride the relationship. That is the greatest fallacy of the NH movement, and I see it on threads here all the time. You ride a horse, not a relationship.

My rancher friend who sold me Trooper told me about Trooper's sire. The sire disliked all humans, and my friend more than most. But he also loved working cattle, and the wilder the cattle, the more the horse loved it. My friend rode that stallion over thousands of miles. And it was after those thousands of miles together that the stallion learned to accept humans. The horse died a few years back, and my very unsentimental rancher friend has a picture of him riding the horse, framed with hair from the mane of the stallion. And if you ask him, he'll tell you he has already ridden the best horse he'll ever meet.

You ride the horse. A relationship MAY follow...
I define natural horsemanship as learning to read the horse well enough that you can communicate with the horse in a way the horse is preprogrammed to understand.

The handful of horses I've met understand 'work' far better than 'play'. Mia doesn't have many faults that couldn't be solved by having cattle to WORK. In their absence, I've been trying to turn her into a good trail horse. And she has a long way to go, but she obviously sees going out on the trail as worthwhile work. She tolerates riding in an arena, but boredom with that sort of thing has been a big source of her problems in riding. She needs a JOB...

"Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing...well, ignore it mostly."
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post #324 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 11:26 AM
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Pardona, you alpha statement is incorrect in my book. My horses should move their feet where I tell them, they should respect me as their alpha or master or whatever you want to call it. I think the biggest problem with Parelli training is the mindset in which you have to be the horses "friend". This is where things go wrong. In being e horses friend, you are making yourself another horse. And a very annoying horse at that. This is where you get sour, aggressive horses. When a horse in the herd annoys another horse, how does that horse respond? It will bit, kick, pin ears and run off. Everything a Parelli trained horse that I have seen does. This isn't a matter of teamwork, this is simply annoyance. My horses know when i come out to the pasture, it's time to work. They aren't overjoyed with it, but they respect me, get the job done and do what I ask. That is team work...

~Started young horses in Bosca te Ador, unto the two rein the old Spanish spade, brought them along with two hands that were gentle. Some fine reining horses as ever were made~
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post #325 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 12:39 PM
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^this for sure! Look, I'm not a horse, I'm a I don't want my horse reacting to me or treating me the way he would another horse. So the whole..."I'm an alpha mare thing" bugs me. also touched on something in one of your posts that I agree with and wanted to comment on. Neither Pat or his wife Linda can ride worth a lick. They have no concept on body control with a horse and teaching it, no concept of collection, no concept on getting drive with the hock, lift in the back and light on the forehand. Although now thaat Linda got a few Dressage lessons (when they USED to laugh at Dressage), she NOW touts that SHE has discovered the secret to getting a horse on a bit. And of course, if you care to offer up some money, you can get a DVD that shows you here secret! It REALLY is laughable.
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post #326 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 12:48 PM
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Padrona, That is great if you have found success with PP methods. But given from what I remember from one of your previous posts you have several years of actual horse experience. That gives you a huge advantage over, again hate to stereotype, middle aged women with empty nest syndrome that decide to buy their first horse and need a step by step system to follow. These people do not have the previous experience to call upon when things don't work for them.
But even at that from my experience even the higher leveled people have resentful horses. Case in point, I worked for a reining horse trainer as did a gal who was a working student(and friend of said trainer) and practiced PP(can't remember for sure what level..3 or 4?) We both were given colts to start. All of her colts had a sh!tty attitude. Way to make a horse hate his job before they ever get ridden. Can't have pinned ears and wringing tails in the show pen. I took a different job after that so not sure how it all panned out, but pretty sure she wasn't allowed to start colts or at least using that method.

I have worked for trainers that use some NH methods so no one can say that all show horse trainers use "traditional methods". I actually had a very well known cow horse trainer teach me a version of join up for starting colts, who would of guessed?
PP is not a method that good trainers use to incorporate into their training program. Two years ago at the NCHA Futurity PP had a booth set up across from a chap builder friend of ours, his booth happened to also be under the huge TV for the live feed of the show, so I would lay on the couch and watch the show both on the TV and at the PP booth. You could tell the difference between the people that were there just to see PP and the folks there for the cutting. Not ONE show person or trainer stopped to visit the booth or talk to PP, it was his followers that came specifically to see him.
Don't you think if there was something to what he was doing that other trainers would be using it? I have never been asked to "go play games with those colts". But I have been shown other NH methods to use in conjunction with the trainers programs. And that speaks volumes to me.

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post #327 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 12:49 PM
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^Thank you! And people do take their riding to heart to. I had a buckskin mare that was Parelli trained. Her head was in the air, she was hollow backed, no drive in the hock, it took me two weeks of fence work just to get her butt underneath her in her turns and stops. No collection what so ever..
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post #328 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 01:11 PM
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Love your post Cowchick and it is spot on. I show AQHA and if Pat Parelli was the greatest trainer that so many people thinks he is, making ALL that money on the videos, clinics, gadgets, and other marketing tools (because he really is a marketing person and not a good trainer)....don't you think all these AQHA trainers would jump on the bandwagon and use his methods too? Just think of the "following" they would have! They would be turning clients away at the door.
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post #329 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 01:23 PM
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^^ How can they keep up with Pat? HE has LINDA to advise him when things get tough...
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"Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing...well, ignore it mostly."
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post #330 of 402 Old 01-26-2013, 01:23 PM
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I retired my WP at the end of show season last year and moved him from my trainer's to a barn up the street from my house. I know the owners (non-horse people) and the owners neice runs the barn. I have known this family for YEARS, especially the niece who DOES have horse experience. The uncle is a biz and the like, has a ton of money and he thought it would be great if his 3 daughters had ponies...a status thing. So he goes on the internet and finds a PP CERTIFIED trainer in Rhode Island, gets hooked up with this "trainer" and buys 3 ponies. He would not listen to his niece who said..."stay away" from this guy. So I go down to the "trainer's" place one day with the niece because the 3 girls go down for lessons before the ponies actually come home.

Well I just about died when I saw this trainer, his students and they way he worked with the 3 girls and their ponies. NO safety whatsoever. He had these girls leading these green-trained ponies way out ahead of them....their hands holding the end of the lead while the pony was far back behind them. That is SO unsafe I had to shake my head. If a horse spooks...where do they run...STRAIGHT AHEAD. Then of course...there was the wiggling of the rope to get the ponies to back up...I always crack up at that method.

Then he had a few students riding their ponies and horses bareback. NO balance and centered seat on a darn one of them. ALL in a chair seat, upper body collapsed, legs shot forward and horses hollow and strung out. Then he said the way you ask a horse to stop, is to quit riding...and basically become even more of a sack of potatoes in the saddle....LOL. Anyone who TRULY know how to ride, knows that you NEVER quit riding....even riding your horse into a stop.

So after a few months of "finishing" the training on these green ponies...the ponies come home. And everyone of those 3 girls got bucked off, run off with, bit, dragged while name it. They lost interest within a month, and about 7 years later (today)....those ponies are still at the barn, NOTHING has been done with them and the barn owner thinks they are worth a gold mine....LOL.
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