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Your opinion on Parelli

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        01-30-2013, 10:47 AM
      #371
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LisaG    
    God, where do those horses come from? I've never seen a horse as bad as the one in the Buck documentary, and I can't imagine one much worse. You're a brave woman. I would run the other way!
    They mostly come from people who have trained them to be that way by allowing it, horses need clear boundaries from day 1. I've been around hundreds of horses that would never dream of crossing the line but there are plenty more that will - the problem comes when people have this stupid idea that all horses are created equal - they just aren't
    I took on an arabian stallion that was going to be shot because he was so aggressive, his owner had been sedating him, bribing him with carrots and thinking he could get him to be his 'friend this way. YES This was a man not a feeble woman and it was before PP his the UK so to me also highlights the sort of people that join his fan club. It took one good wack with a hefty stick to tell him it wasnt acceptable
    The horse in the Buck movie may have had any number of other problems - I don't think it was ever confirmed if it had some sort of brain damage or not. If it had been mine it would have been shot with a sedative dart and castrated first. That horse wasnt ay all nervous of the sack & flapping a sack at an aggressive horse is never going to help - it just irritated the horse and imflamed the situation. Rule 1 - never underestimate your opposition
    The idea of you stop a horse by stopping riding it?
    Well good luck with that if you have something forward going - my sort of horse. We've bought 2 new horses since we came to the US and in doing I've ridden dozens - various breeds, a couple of hunter jumpers that could get over a 3ft fence OK, some top arabian/part arabian show horses etc and the majority of them stopped moving the minute I stopped kicking & pushing
    That is not my idea of a well trained enjoyable ride
    themacpack likes this.
         
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        01-30-2013, 11:11 AM
      #372
    Weanling
    NRHAReiner, I just re-read your post, and I see you weren't referring to people starting horses, but people who do get in over their heads with any horse. You probably have a point there, but I wonder if the people who buy the DVDs would be any more likely to send a horse to a trainer whether or not those DVDs were available.

    I don't know about your area, but we have very few professional trainers where I am, and they book up fast and early. And some of them don't even take problem horses anymore - they just start colts and take on performance horses.
    gypsygirl likes this.
         
        01-30-2013, 01:56 PM
      #373
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    I had to chuckle on the post about how mean all of the Apps were that one person ran into. I have yet to run into my first bad App. Some of the older ones are really dumb, but once they learn what you want, they are solid forever. I always thought they were too dumb to learn the cute tricks and bad habits that smart horses figure out with novice riders.

    When I was sending a lot of 'dude horses' to the YMCA Camps and to dude ranches in Colorado, I used to buy every gentle sound one that came through the local sales or I found privately. I have one now, a big sorrel with a blanket by the name of Frosty. Gee, he is nice and rides good for anyone that can pick up the reins and he is only 7 and rides like he is 20.

    I used to take in a lot of really spoiled and exceptionally mean horses. I retrained several stallions that were a LOT worse than the horse shown in the movie about Buck Branaman. Not one was a App. They were QHs, Paints, TBs and a couple of really mean Arabians. Some had put people in the hospital and a couple had nearly killed men -- including one local trainer that was attacked and had his Femur fractured in multiple places with bone sticking through his jeans. It permanently crippled him. Another one had turned tail and kicked a woman I knew very well and had helped her with him years before. He kicked one eye out and broke every bone in her face. She required many plastic surgeries. Her husband called me from the hospital and told me and asked me to go to their house and get him before he got home from the hospital. Not one had to be destroyed and not one was an App. Oh well. Sorry to get off topic.
    THANK YOU! You proved my point EXACTLY! "MY" personal experience in my day to day job with Appys has been this - every single dangerous horse I've been faced with having to trim has been an Appy. Every.Single.One. But that is "MY" personal experience, and nothing else. You go down the road to somebody else and ask them if they ever experienced a dangerous Appy....the answer might be NO.

    So you can't say that ALL Parelli trained horses are dangerous, spoiled, brats that are going to hurt somebdy. Whatever you experience in your tiny little piece of the earth....well, that's all it is. YOUR personal experience and opinion, and it doesn't necessarily represent the overall facts.

    I would have no right to state unequivocally that all Appaloosa horses are dangerous, belligerant farrier killers, just like you have no right to state that all Parelli trained horses are dangerous, spoiled brats. NEITHER opinion would be true.

    I trim plenty of Parelli trained horses that are absolutely fabulous to trim and work around and underneath! That's just the facts. Sorry if you don't believe it.
         
        01-30-2013, 02:08 PM
      #374
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikyplushbreyer    
    I have gone to the horse and soul and to say so myself he is probably the best way to go in terms of a quick result.
    Yes, he does give a quick result, but the REAL training comes later. PP told me in no uncertain terms that I have a long road ahead with my mare. He told me that she was going to require daily work.

    I had hired trainers to work with her, and with me. I took lessons on her. I paid a John Lyons certified trainer to drive over 60 miles one way to my farm to assess the horse, and the only thing she could offer me in terms of behavioral analysis was that Arabians are pretty stupid compared to Quarter Horses. If you spend 2 minutes teaching a QH something, you'll need 2 hours to teach an Arabian.

    Really? Really?!

    In the first 5 minutes PP was with my horse, he told me more about her behavior than 4 other trainers had told me after working with her for hours an days. Yes I did have some good moments with these trainers. Yes they did help teach me some things with her that would be beneficial. No, it wasn't all bad, but there was a huge hole in this horse's training that I just could not seem to close up.

    PP was the only trainer that actually told me - you got an awesome horse here. This is what you need to do to get through to her .....

    And in the last 3 months since PP worked with my horse, I've made exponentially more progress than I made in the 8+ years prior to this.

    Also, I think that the quickest results come from the trailer loading horses. The trailer loading demo horse stabled next to me always took 1-2 hours to get on the trailer. The day they left from the tour stop to go home with that horse, the owner calmly walked her right up to the trailer, tossed the rope over her back, and the mare walked in and stood in her spot. She loaded in 2 seconds. The owner was nearly in tears. So yes that was a really quick result, but something that should last the horse's lifetime.
         
        01-30-2013, 03:23 PM
      #375
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    The idea of you stop a horse by stopping riding it?
    Well good luck with that if you have something forward going - my sort of horse. We've bought 2 new horses since we came to the US and in doing I've ridden dozens - various breeds, a couple of hunter jumpers that could get over a 3ft fence OK, some top arabian/part arabian show horses etc and the majority of them stopped moving the minute I stopped kicking & pushing
    That is not my idea of a well trained enjoyable ride
    I have no idea what you're getting at here. I didn't say anything about riding such horses. I just said I wouldn't want to tackle a dangerous horse's issues (i.e. I'd run the other way). Fortunately I haven't had to, and I don't intend to go out and find one.

    There are plenty of good horses out there, so I prefer to leave the badly damaged ones to people with the interest in and experience to help them.
         
        01-31-2013, 11:09 AM
      #376
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LisaG
    God, where do those horses come from? I've never seen a horse as bad as the one in the Buck documentary, and I can't imagine one much worse. You're a brave woman. I would run the other way!
    Some horses have a very dominant natures -- particularly some studs. It is not always related to inherent disposition. Horses with a dominant nature can be messed up very easily. For some, all it takes is a handler that backs away from a horse that lays his ears back and shakes his head. From that day on, the horse gets more and more bold until they decide they can attack that person (or any person for some horses). You've seen the pasture bullies that dive at other horse and take hunks out of their backs or butts? Well, just place a person in that picture and you have an attacking horse.

    The first spoiled stud I took in I had signed a contract to stand at stud to the public back when I had a stallion station. He was a really good-looking gray AA - ROM son of Quick M Silver that came off of the track 2 years earlier. The guy also wanted me to ride him before and after the breeding season.

    He had him hauled to me by two guys driving a big 16 foot U-Haul rented box van. [I'm sure they did not know he was going to haul a horse in it.] He was cross-tied in the front where he could not kick it. ]I found out later that he had kicked apart 2 or 3 trailers.] Of course, they arrived just before dark.

    We had a loading chute so they backed up to it and the driver and his helper put a chain shank on the horse but kept his rope lead on him also. The two of them led him out and to his new stud pen and run-in stall. They kept him between them, put him in the pen and almost ran to the truck and left. They gave me a check from the owner for his first two months' board and training. Of course, the owner did not come. Of course they did not say anything about him being vicious. They acted like they were just doing the owner a favor because he could ot get away. The guy lived 300 miles away in Denver. I lived in SW Colorado on the other side of the mountains.

    The next morning went in his pen with a halter and lead. I went to halter him and he jumped in the middle of me, head down, hitting me in the stomach with his head and knocked me all the way across the pen. It was a head butt like a bull would do without ears back or any warning. I just thought he dropped his head to be haltered. It caught me 100% off guard and by total surprise. I crawled out of his pen by crawling under the bottom board of the fence. I was OK but pretty shaken up. I tried to call the owner, but could not reach him.

    It took one hour to make him into a 'nice horse' with respect. He turned into a different horse that quickly. I halterd him across his gate. It took a little while but I got him haltered with a big heavy custom-made mule halter. It was too big, but I know it would hold a 1300# mad horse. I got a friend to come and we led him (between us) to my square 'breaking pen' that had a 6 foot snubbing post in the middle of it. [Now I knew why two guys led him with two leads] I had a mule chain (made from heavy hardware store chain that twisted and laid flat) and had a big bull-snap in one end of it. It went over his nose but was too low because the big halter was too big. I tied him with it to the hitching post with it (keeping the other lead on him too) and slapped his nose. He attacked the post while I stepped back. He pawed it, attacked it with his teeth and finally got a front foot over the lead he was tied with. It came down over his nose and cut off his air. My friend asked if I was going to let him die as his eyes rolled back and his tongue turned blue. I waited until he passed out and fell (front foot still hung up on the rope. I took out my pocket knife and cut the rope. He fell and started breathing. I jumped on his head and went to petting him all over while he laid there. I did not know what I had or what I had accomplished. I had no idea.

    But, when he got up, he thought I was god. I think he thought I had saved his life. I really do not know. All I know is it took me a long time to trust him. I soon went to riding him and I stood him at stud for 4 or 5 years until he was sold. Some of the best horses I ever rode were sired by him.

    Later, I talked to his owner and he came clean. This horse had grabbed him by the chest and tore several muscles, putting him the the hospital. He had kicked completely apart more than one trailer. All of this was after an uneventful 2 years at the track. He brought him home because he could not run faster than AA and all of the spoiling took place at his place south of Denver. I was young then and lucky it came out like it did. I was probably 21 or 22 back then and he was the first vicious horse I had agreed to take. Many more followed after that and my methods to get them back on track got a lot more refined. But this horse was my first and was a real success story.

    I also got him back to hauling good in a 2 horse trailer. When the owner sold him (for a lot of money), the new owner hauled him to Skiatook, OK in a 2 horse trailer, about 900 miles.
    smrobs and LisaG like this.
         
        01-31-2013, 11:33 AM
      #377
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LisaG    
    I have no idea what you're getting at here. I didn't say anything about riding such horses. I just said I wouldn't want to tackle a dangerous horse's issues (i.e. I'd run the other way). Fortunately I haven't had to, and I don't intend to go out and find one.

    There are plenty of good horses out there, so I prefer to leave the badly damaged ones to people with the interest in and experience to help them.
    That part of my post was in response to #330 (I thinks that's the right one) who commented on PP teaching that the way to get a horse to 'whoa' was to stop riding it. It wasnt directed at you at all
    If more people avoided buying horses that they weren't capable of managing there would be a much smaller fan base for all of these DVD trainers. I would imagine that for every success there have been a thousand + failures
    themacpack likes this.
         
        01-31-2013, 08:20 PM
      #378
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    That part of my post was in response to #330 (I thinks that's the right one) who commented on PP teaching that the way to get a horse to 'whoa' was to stop riding it. It wasnt directed at you at all
    If more people avoided buying horses that they weren't capable of managing there would be a much smaller fan base for all of these DVD trainers. I would imagine that for every success there have been a thousand + failures

    Okay, thanks for clearing that up. That was one of the PP things I never really got, either.
    jaydee likes this.
         
        01-31-2013, 11:59 PM
      #379
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GotaDunQH    
    I retired my WP at the end of show season last year and moved him from my trainer's to a barn up the street from my house. I know the owners (non-horse people) and the owners neice runs the barn. I have known this family for YEARS, especially the niece who DOES have horse experience. The uncle is a biz owner..construction and the like, has a ton of money and he thought it would be great if his 3 daughters had ponies...a status thing. So he goes on the internet and finds a PP CERTIFIED trainer in Rhode Island, gets hooked up with this "trainer" and buys 3 ponies. He would not listen to his niece who said..."stay away" from this guy. So I go down to the "trainer's" place one day with the niece because the 3 girls go down for lessons before the ponies actually come home.

    Well I just about died when I saw this trainer, his students and they way he worked with the 3 girls and their ponies. NO safety whatsoever. He had these girls leading these green-trained ponies way out ahead of them....their hands holding the end of the lead while the pony was far back behind them. That is SO unsafe I had to shake my head. If a horse spooks...where do they run...STRAIGHT AHEAD. Then of course...there was the wiggling of the rope to get the ponies to back up...I always crack up at that method.

    Then he had a few students riding their ponies and horses bareback. NO balance and centered seat on a darn one of them. ALL in a chair seat, upper body collapsed, legs shot forward and horses hollow and strung out. Then he said the way you ask a horse to stop, is to quit riding...and basically become even more of a sack of potatoes in the saddle....LOL. Anyone who TRULY know how to ride, knows that you NEVER quit riding....even riding your horse into a stop.

    So after a few months of "finishing" the training on these green ponies...the ponies come home. And everyone of those 3 girls got bucked off, run off with, bit, dragged while leading...you name it. They lost interest within a month, and about 7 years later (today)....those ponies are still at the barn, NOTHING has been done with them and the barn owner thinks they are worth a gold mine....LOL.
    Here's the post and I am the author, and yep....the "quit" riding to stop a horse is just bad horsemanship...plain and simple, yet this is what this Parelli CERTIFIED training was saying. I saw with my OWN EYES his students doing exactly what he said....it was just nuts and the worst horsemanship I've ever seen, and Parelli teaches this. There are many examples of riding a horse into a stop, but the two that stick out in my mind are:

    1. A reining horse, the rider rides to, into and out of the sliding stop. They DON'T just quit riding.

    2. A halt in a Dressage test, the horse is compacted (collected) the whole way INTO and THROUGH a halt, so the horse stops SQUARE!

    Like I said, Parelli can't ride worth a lick nor can he teach someone to ride.
    NdAppy, jaydee and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        02-01-2013, 12:21 AM
      #380
    Weanling
    Cherie, you are the woman. I would have punched that owner for not warning me, but then I guess that's why I'm not in the horse training business!

    I grew up on a ranch, and the bulls were never aggressive towards humans. I realize they can be dangerous, but to be honest, cows with calves are usually more dangerous in my experience. So I just don't get why people end up with these deadly studs. They must treat them like big babies.

    GotaDunQH, I agree. The rope wiggling doesn't make sense either. I liked how PP explained some of the other yielding stuff with the halter, though, back in the '90s. I know he didn't invent this, and I'm sure other people explained it to me along the way, but that was one thing he explained that made sense to me.

    I do just enough of it that my horses understand what I need them to do, and they're all light. I'm pretty assertive about making them respect my space, too, though.
         

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