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Your opinion on Parelli

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  • Buck brannaman vs parelli
  • Buck brannaman vs. pat parelli, whats the difference in teachings

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    01-16-2013, 09:21 AM
  #51
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegasus1    
And Pat, for one, fully acknowledges that these ideas "are so old they are new again".
Large parts of his profits actually go to outreach programs and very heavy scholarship of new students. Several of my friends have gone to his ranch. Their training has been free, they just have to pay for food and accommodation.
Don't know what programs the others have, but I'm sure they must also have scholarship programs.
Besides, I thought America was the land where personal success was applauded. But maybe not if they are making money out of you pass time ?
My issue with his "training" has nothing to do with the fact that he is successful. Is the old "you're just jealous" argument really the best defense you can raise against those who are not as enamored of him?
     
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    01-16-2013, 09:53 AM
  #52
Trained
When someone says his teachings "are so old they are new again", it suggests he IS teaching something new, because he's gone back and researched and learned from past "masters", Grasshopper. And now it's "new" somehow.

Most folks don't begrudge Parelli his money. They do suggest you are paying more than what you are getting, and that there are more frugal options out there.

And I think a lot of opposition comes from those who have seen the failures. You can blame the individual for not truly following Pat's methods, but I'll blame the instructor for either not warning them that his method isn't suitable for learning by watching DVDs, or for making claims of success that just don't match what a lot of folks are seeing around them.

If I ever buy another horse, I want one that doesn't need any more training. One that is level-headed, has lots of trail time, and takes care of his rider. Trooper is like that, but he's ridden by the females in our family. Mia is a sweet girl, but I think she believes every ride should be an adventure. If there isn't anything exciting going on, she'll invent something. But sometimes it would be nice to have a horse who could be ridden bareback in the desert, and who is big enough for me to ride. A horse who could make me a better rider because I could relax on him/her since both of us know Geronimo has been dead a long time, and isn't preparing an ambush for us just around the bend in the wash.

But if I saw an ad on Craigslist for a horse trained in Parelli, I'd skip to the next ad. Where I live, the image that comes to mind is of a horse that is poorly mannered and rarely ridden. Maybe that is because the nearest Parelli-trained instructor is 30-40 miles away and is a level 1 instructor. But those who live by marketing can't complain if they are judged by the end product people see. And the few "Parelli trained" horses I've seen all look like "green broke" to me.

I'm sure culture plays a part in this. In southern Arizona, we don't have "barns". We have stables where people keep their horses, or backyards where horses live. Most of the horses in a stable are used for trail riding, not competition. You rent a small corral at a local stable. You don't subscribe to some program, style of riding, competition or training philosophy. I'm sure places that have on-site upper level Parelli trainers have different results than what I run in to here.

But if Parelli is going to market his DVDs to folks who don't have a trainer around to help them, then he can eat the results of his DVD-based training. And where I live, the chow ain't going to be too tasty...

In his defense, though, I wouldn't get excited if someone advertised a horse trained according to Clinton Anderson either. I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons.
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    01-16-2013, 02:27 PM
  #53
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
When someone invents a real life cookie cutter horse then maybe you could just rely on one person to listen too - the person who designed it and wrote out the instruction manual
Until that day comes (and heaven forbid it ever happens) the best approach is to look at everything that's out there, keep a notebook even and use it 'as and when'. I cut things out of magazines, print stuff off the web, note things down I read on forums when I think mmm that might come in handy one day - and they go into a folder
Most of what these trainers - including PP - will tell you has already been told before or is being told be someone else and in a few years time it will still be going on in exactly the same way with a few variations to the theme.
I can appreciate that people who havent been exposed to real life trainers - hands on will always be the best way to learn - and are new to horses will lean on this sort of thing but I've done pretty well over the years and was having success with horses before anyone even heard of PP and his like in the UK so no way am I going to say you can't have done just as well without them because for years and years people have done exactly that.
Too much of his stuff is way too drawn out and 'for the sake of it' - but of course that's the secret to selling more DVD's
Buck Branaman says that once he found Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, he never ever looked for anything else. He said it just made sense to him and can be applied to every horse. Buck is considered a master, a legend almost. And he did not attain that level from hopping around from one thing to another, one trainer or instructor to the next.

I agree that everyone has to find what works for them. There is no one trainer that every horse person is going to love. We're all different, we all expect different things from a trainer. But I don't necessarily think you HAVE to jump around and learn from 76 different trainers in your life to be a true horseman.

We live in the days of Craigslist and Ebay, so it is very easy to find many DVDs for cheap. Many of my DVDs were hand-me-downs from others. I bought the Level 4 series from the Parelli website, but did so with a 15% coupon and free shipping, so it was very affordable. Again, 4 full length DVDs - many hours of run time (don't know exactly how many), for around $100 bucks. That is actually a great deal! I have spent thousands on training materials from traditional dressage and hunter jumper trainers. I remember the days of dropping $250 to trot my horse around a triangle for a rated judge to give me an opinion on movement in hand..... For $250 I can buy a whole Parelli DVD collection.

So no, I'm not saying the Parelli way is BETTER. I'm only saying that when it comes to the cost of it, there really isn't a good argument for it being so expensive. It's actually extremely affordable in my opinion!
Northern, Dame Nuit and Pegasus1 like this.
     
    01-16-2013, 02:38 PM
  #54
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    

But if I saw an ad on Craigslist for a horse trained in Parelli, I'd skip to the next ad. Where I live, the image that comes to mind is of a horse that is poorly mannered and rarely ridden.
One of the ladies who really introduced me to Parelli for my problem horse, is an endurance rider, and is a solid Level 4 in the program! I too ride endurance, and she can ride circles around me! She was out there riding yesterday in the brutually cold wind. She rode on the paved road in front of her house because there is too much ice in the fields. She GPS tracks her miles, and she is conditioning one horse, and training 2 of her others. She will have two horses competing in endurance full time this season.

She has extremely well mannered horses (I trim their hooves!). Her horses can be pointed at a trailer parked 100 yards away, and they will run to it and jump on. She can canter her horse in a field with NO tack whatsoever, not even a halter. Her horses are worked, they are worked with, and they are ridden a LOT. A whole lot!

Yes, I do trim for some "Parelli people" who do not ride, and that have spoiled, rude horses. But I also trim horses for plenty of ordinary traditional people with the same kind of bad tempered horses.

I really don't think you can sum all the Parelli riders up in on lump. The ones I have met at the Horse and Soul tours, absolutely do ride! Many of them are at the stage of being able to jump and canter bareback with no tack. These are some seriously trained and accomplished horses.

My one Arab mare I have started over from scratch, starting at the very basic friendly game on the ground and going up from there. I am now riding her about 3x per week, and she is so connected to me at this point I can drop the reins on her neck and mostly just think about where I want to go or what I want to do, and she responds very nicely. This is a really hot, high spirited horse that was spooking at everything, getting herself spun up on adreanaline, and was extremely dominant. The change in this horse is absolutely remarkable.

I really don't believe you can group "Parelli people" in one lump any more than you can "dressage people" or "working cow people" or "western pleasure people." There are so many different types of riders within those groups, you are bound to see good, bad, and everything in between!
     
    01-16-2013, 03:18 PM
  #55
Started
I find PNH regular retail cost of items to be overpriced, & if you want to go to Pagosa Sprngs for a learning week or work your way up to becoming a PNH professional, you're looking at major bucks, but if you're going to stick with just achieving the Levels, Padrona has a point that in comparison to what you're going to spend for other trainers' materials/lessons, PNH is a bargain.

Bill Dorrance said that true horsemanship is passed down from friend to friend; it's not for sale! Plus, Tom Dorrance never charged a cent for all of the help that he gave the younger generation of students!

All of the Dorrances' students have conveniently forgotten their example and admonition in this regard.
themacpack and NBEventer like this.
     
    01-16-2013, 11:00 PM
  #56
Showing
I'm not blaming Parelli but I do get rather ticked with those who worship him and his methods and nothing else matters. And those who don't worship him get treated like heathens. Not everyone does this but too many of them do. When I watch dvds, no matter who did them, or clinics I go with the idea of what I can learn, and not to find fault. There are many accomplished horsemen like Buck Brannaman. He wrote a tell-all book about his father and that crap always sells. If his father was so bad why has Buck been quite rude to students? Sometimes students are blamed for not listening when the teacher is lacking in teaching skills.
     
    01-16-2013, 11:21 PM
  #57
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padrona    
...I really don't believe you can group "Parelli people" in one lump any more than you can "dressage people" or "working cow people" or "western pleasure people." There are so many different types of riders within those groups, you are bound to see good, bad, and everything in between!
I absolutely CAN assess the majority - OK all - of the Parelli horses I've seen. As I said in my post, the only Parelli trainer within the county is a level 1, and I haven't seen any of her horses. I'm saying what I've seen of those who 'do' Parelli based on the DVDs. Their horses are below average.

If Parelli doesn't think people should train their horses just by watching his DVDs, then he should say so. He shouldn't market the DVDs as teaching a newbie to train their horse.

As I said at the end of my post: "I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons."
smrobs and jaydee like this.
     
    01-17-2013, 05:11 AM
  #58
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
As I said in my post, the only Parelli trainer within the county is a level 1,
You can't be a Parelli Instructor with a level 1, you have to be at least level 3 ... I suppose you mean 1 star.
     
    01-17-2013, 09:22 AM
  #59
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padrona    
Buck Branaman says that once he found Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, he never ever looked for anything else. He said it just made sense to him and can be applied to every horse. Buck is considered a master, a legend almost. And he did not attain that level from hopping around from one thing to another, one trainer or instructor to the next.

I agree that everyone has to find what works for them. There is no one trainer that every horse person is going to love. We're all different, we all expect different things from a trainer. But I don't necessarily think you HAVE to jump around and learn from 76 different trainers in your life to be a true horseman.

We live in the days of Craigslist and Ebay, so it is very easy to find many DVDs for cheap. Many of my DVDs were hand-me-downs from others. I bought the Level 4 series from the Parelli website, but did so with a 15% coupon and free shipping, so it was very affordable. Again, 4 full length DVDs - many hours of run time (don't know exactly how many), for around $100 bucks. That is actually a great deal! I have spent thousands on training materials from traditional dressage and hunter jumper trainers. I remember the days of dropping $250 to trot my horse around a triangle for a rated judge to give me an opinion on movement in hand..... For $250 I can buy a whole Parelli DVD collection.

So no, I'm not saying the Parelli way is BETTER. I'm only saying that when it comes to the cost of it, there really isn't a good argument for it being so expensive. It's actually extremely affordable in my opinion!
I admire Buck Brannaman - though I wouldnt idolise him - I certainly wouldnt put PP in the same box as him, Dorrance or Hunt as he just doesnt measure up to their level
For me to say that I could learn all I need to know from any of these people would be stupid - they are western riders (though BB could easily turn his hand to dressage if he wanted too I'm sure) but for someone like me who's done British Showing classes, cross country, eventing - showjumping, dressage etc all their life I would be drawing some pretty huge blanks if I were to rely on any one trainer for all the disciplines I've needed to get experience in.
No you don't need to have 70+ trainers but I could bet that over the years I've gathered very useful snippets of information from thousands of different sources
themacpack likes this.
     
    01-17-2013, 11:33 AM
  #60
Trained
There are a lot of PP followers around here. I would not take any one of their horses if you gave them too me. Like I stated here is one person who did OK with her horse using PP and it took her over 4 years to get it to the point I would consider even green broke.

If I see a horse for sale stating PP or even NH around here as NH is just anouther word for DVD training and PP around here I do not even read any further. I have see too many of these horses and I will not wast the money feeding them.
     

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