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Your opinion on Parelli

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  • Roll backs with pat parelli
  • Can an amateur actually start a horse with parelli

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    01-17-2013, 11:06 AM
  #61
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
There are a lot of PP followers around here. I would not take any one of their horses if you gave them too me.
Don't worry, I wouldn't give mine to you!
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    01-17-2013, 11:16 AM
  #62
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dame Nuit    
Don't worry, I wouldn't give mine to you!

That is fine. Probable would not take it if you did. All mine are open level reining horses. If they do not slide I do not ride. Again it is a difference in use. I ride with a loos rein with little to no contact at all. Heck I ride my stallion with his reins about down to his knees. The bit he has is actually quite milde by reining starndards but when I pick up on that loose rein by less then a inch he feels it. Why? Not b/c the bit is digging into his mouth but b/c he feels the slightest sigle from the hands to the reins to the bit. Add that in with my seat and legs and he knows what I want.
     
    01-17-2013, 11:50 AM
  #63
Weanling
I will say this my current trainer was a Parelli student from when he started out way before anyone even knew who he was and she was quite the professional horse trainer.

She trained several other peoples horses and her own and I will say this that her boy that she rode prior to his death last year was one of the best behaved horses and had one of the best demeanors.

I will say this she doesn't like Parelli at all as a person but she identifies with his method and uses his principles. I can assure you that she knows what she is doing and has been doing it for over 20 years quite well.

We have some horses at the stables that were trained elsewhere and we have no idea who trained and we have one who I ride that was trained with the CA method because my trainers husband is a huge CA fan and he was the one that trained him from a foal. To be honest I can tell much difference in the finished products.

Both methods work towards the same goal and many principles are the same even if they aren't called the same thing. I happen to understand what Pat is saying a bit better. Though I have watched CA and picked up a few things. I also have liked things I've seen of Stacy Westfall and Chris Cox.

I like the 7 games of Parelli as I see them as a useful tool no matter if he is a very good rider or not.

As I have said though at our stables we don't tolerate horses being disrespectful and disobediant and most of the horses owned by the stable were trained Parelli and they are quite well behaved.

Now it may be a mental thing with my Rags that I ride out there but he is not always quite so well behaved and he had a lot of CA work done on him and he is quite accomplished and requires a soft hand to ride and mostly just rides off legs. I hardly need my reins but he also has a real tendancy to forget we are working and not doing what Rags wants to do and I have to get after him a bit.

That may have nothign to do with his training however and could just be a brain issue that you can't train out. Its to be seen. My trainer has been working with me on a lot of that.
     
    01-20-2013, 07:52 AM
  #64
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
I absolutely CAN assess the majority - OK all - of the Parelli horses I've seen. As I said in my post, the only Parelli trainer within the county is a level 1, and I haven't seen any of her horses. I'm saying what I've seen of those who 'do' Parelli based on the DVDs. Their horses are below average.

If Parelli doesn't think people should train their horses just by watching his DVDs, then he should say so. He shouldn't market the DVDs as teaching a newbie to train their horse.

As I said at the end of my post: "I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons."
I'm sorry to hear you have only seen the bad "Parelli horses." I have seen bad, and good, and formed my own opinion based on that. But as I said, given my profession, I am around horses every day that are Clinton Anderson trained, traditional dressage, traditional western type trainers, John Lyons, Parelli, etc..... After awhile, you learn that EVERY "cult" has the beautifully and meticulously trained horses, and the rude, pushy ones that couldn't be ridden around an indoor arena without killing their rider. I've come to the conclusion that you just can't draw conclusions.

Yesterday I very successfully and easily trimmed the feet of a 4 year old rescue horse who was basically untouched before this lady took him out of the rescue. Wild, high spirit, spooky, running people over, sure couldn't touch his feet without him running away. Yesterday was our second session together and I trimmed all four feet with the horse COMPLETELY relaxed, soft, eyes half shut, head low, hind foot rested. I never chased him, in fact I never did more than move him around on the line left and right a few times at a walk. He never shed a drop of sweat. He never got upset or flustered. I used the first 4 Parelli games to assess him and build some trust. First time I met this horse, I couldn't get within 10 feet of him or he'd blow up and bolt and run. Nobody at the rescue was allowed to touch him anymore because he was so wild he was going to hurt someone.

I worked with him 1 hour the first time I met him, and 1 hour yesterday. All four feet trimmed just as easily and nicely as you could imagine. His owner has been doing the basic Parelli games with him, and he yields so beautifully to pressure now. You can move him with just a suggestion - point a finger and he backs up. He is a 1,200 lb. Fjord and weighs literally aout 2 ounces at the end of the lead rope. He is polite, respectful, and patient. The change in him is really amazing.

Could you have done that having never heard of the word "Parelli" in your life? SURE! Of course you could. You don't need a name attached to what you do in order for it to be successful. But my point is that myself and the owner only used the first 4 games to get him from wild, spazzing around, blowing up, running backward, knocking people down, to standing there gentle and quiet as a lamb.

And I do NOT believe in round penning horses, and running them to death to "wear them out." This horse was never run, chased, or even asked to trot! 80% of all the work I did with him was at a halt, just teaching him trust with the friendly game. Then some gentle yieling to direct and indirect pressure, and some circling at the walk. That was it.

I have never in my life come across a useful situation for Clinton Anderson training. I think he is harsh, abusive, crude, and he has absolutely no timing or feel whatsoever. I would rather retire my horse at the age of 5 as unrideable than let Clinton Anderson set one foot on my property to help me. But I'm not above admitting that there might be really super nice Clinton Anderson trained horses out there.

It's worth noting that the rescue that horse came from uses Clinton Anderson techniques. The owner told me that the rescue people would say "Don't you dare ever mention the word Parelli around here!!!"

Hmmmmm. So who got the horse soft, calm, relaxed, happy, gentle, and all four feet trimmed without one drop of sweat shed, and who deemed him unsafe and dangerous and nobody was allowed to touch him? Just think on that for a minute LOL
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    01-20-2013, 08:11 AM
  #65
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
That is fine. Probable would not take it if you did. All mine are open level reining horses. If they do not slide I do not ride. Again it is a difference in use. I ride with a loos rein with little to no contact at all. Heck I ride my stallion with his reins about down to his knees. The bit he has is actually quite milde by reining starndards but when I pick up on that loose rein by less then a inch he feels it. Why? Not b/c the bit is digging into his mouth but b/c he feels the slightest sigle from the hands to the reins to the bit. Add that in with my seat and legs and he knows what I want.
This can be achieved through the Parelli method as well. When I took my horse to Tennessee to part of the tour stop, I was able to watch 3 days of behind the scenes training with the Parelli Instructors, handlers, and Pat himself. It was INCREDIBLE, the level of finnesse those horses have. All of them could do rollbacks and gallop without any bridle on the horse's head, and often no saddle either. They were jumping without tack. How many of us can or would do that? Seriously, Stacey Westfall would have just about nothing on those Parelli Instructors that were there.

And even in the barns where my horse was stabled, their horses could be ground tied in the aisles and never move. They would come to the door of the stall and put their head down for haltering. Their owner wouldn't even have to walk in the stall and put a halter on. The horse practically halters himself. And the instructors were so generous with their time and knowledge. They helped me very much with my mare while I was there. They were always happy to talk and share what they knew. Their horses seemed so calm and centered. While my mare was pacing the stall and spinning the shavings up into the corners, their horses would be flat out sound asleep, snoring, not a care in the world. They were good eaters and drinkers, they just did everything with such grace and elegance.

Overall, the feeling in the barns was relaxed, happy, easy-going, centered, calm energy, and peaceful. To say I was impressed is an understatement.

In one of the Parelli videos I have, Pat shows how all his horses are trained to move around him during saddling. He cinches up the near side, and does his flank strap, then he never moves his feet, and the horse moves around to his other side so he can check the off-side rigging. Then the horse can move back to the other side. The whole time Pat never moved his feet. If people actually took the time to view the material and decide for themselves, versus just believing the negative gossip and attacks on the internet, they might find themselves pleasantly surprised. I was certainly shocked at the level of finesse and attention to detail that Parelli teaches in all his material. I honestly did not think it was like that until I saw it for myself.

And no I don't think a person NEEDS Parelli to have a really well balanced, beautifully trained, and safe horse. But I also don't think others should attack Parelli people just for being Parelli people, because many of them do have exceptionally polite, polished horses.
     
    01-20-2013, 08:34 AM
  #66
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padrona    
...It's worth noting that the rescue that horse came from uses Clinton Anderson techniques. The owner told me that the rescue people would say "Don't you dare ever mention the word Parelli around here!!!"

Hmmmmm. So who got the horse soft, calm, relaxed, happy, gentle, and all four feet trimmed without one drop of sweat shed, and who deemed him unsafe and dangerous and nobody was allowed to touch him? Just think on that for a minute LOL
My answer would be, "Someone who has plenty of experience around horses!"

As I've said several times, my main objection to Parelli isn't his 'games', although I think that word is kind of silly. My objection is to the idea that someone who doesn't know much about horses has much business in training a horse. The horse you mentioned was NOT dealt with by someone whose knowledge of horses was based on watching DVDs.

From post 52 of this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
...In his defense, though, I wouldn't get excited if someone advertised a horse trained according to Clinton Anderson either. I'm not sure my problem is with Pat Parelli or CA or others. It may be mostly with the idea that someone with limited experience with horses can train a horse after watching some DVDs. The exception would be if it was trained by a pro who was Parelli / CA / John Lyons certified...I would take a look then. The difference is between pro vs amateur rather than Parelli vs Lyons.
I think training DVDS - which can be very good - should all start with a warning:
"Training horses isn't as easy as it will look in this DVD. Training a horse right depends on being able to read the horse's emotions and reactions, and to do so almost instantly. If you are new to horses, don't try to train a colt. If you want to round pen a horse, hire a reputable local trainer to spend a few hours teaching you the basics. We have DVDs available on reading a horse, but there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE around horses.

After you have some experience, start by training an already trained horse to do something better. Our DVDs offer suggestions that work for most horses. But each horse is an individual. If in doubt, hire someone to watch you and your horse and see if you are ready to teach that individual horse."

That was typed off the top of my head, and I'm sure it could be improved on. But too much of the video trainer market is oriented to people who have no experience, or limited experience. And too much of it, including videos I've seen of Parelli, suggests training depends on 'if your horse likes you and is your friend...'

I've met people who are worried about getting hurt and basically end up with a backyard pet. I can understand that. I bought a wholly unsuitable horse (having been told she was perfect for a beginner) and a few months later had a back injury that I can feel as I type this, 4 years later. If anyone had wanted her, the best bet would have been to sell her - but no one wanted her. And no DVD would have allowed us to make the progress we have made.

The many hours spent watching a well-thought-of local trainer working her, and having the trainer watch me working her, combined with hundreds of hours of work, have almost got her to the point someone MIGHT consider buying her - although we've been thru too much for me to be interested in selling her now! And even now, most experienced riders on this forum would consider her marginal...

My objection isn't to Parelli's techniques, but to the marketing concept that inexperienced people can do a good job training their horse after watching DVDs. If Parelli marketed his 'system' as something to be done with supervision from a Parelli-trained instructor, or as ideas a moderately experienced rider could use with a green-broke horse, I'd shut up. But I haven't seen any videos of him making that argument. And there would be fewer people going to his clinics and buying his stuff if he did...
     
    01-20-2013, 08:44 AM
  #67
Foal
Oh yes, I completely agree with your point bsms! I agree that someone with no horse knowledge or skills whatsoever, has no business buying training DVDs and trying to train a horse. That is a trainwreck in process!

However, I will say that Parelli's training videos are divided up into actual training videos for the more experienced, accomplished person, and the basic safety techniques videos.

Anybody can buy or watch the Level 1 DVDs and apply it to their very first horse and be reasonably safe. As safe as you can be with a horse anyway. Basically he goes into detail on how to stay safe around the horse. Proper haltering, moving him away from pressure, walking him toward pressure, etc. He goes into a lot of detail on showing the beginner how to not get kicked or bit, how to not scare or fluster your horse, and so forth.

The later DVDs start going into more detail about various training techniques.

If I had a loved one with NO horse knowledge whatsoever, and they wanted to go out and buy a horse, I would have no problem handing them Level 1 and saying "Watch this and follow it to the letter." The knowledge they gain there would be far superior to doing things free willy on their own. Of course one on one lessons with a qualified instructor is the best option, but often people can't afford that.

In the Safe Ride video, Pat and Linda both go into really complex detail on assessing your horse and your tack for safety concerns before mounting up. It is a great video and the topic is safety, not training.

I do wish their DVDs were better labeled for absolutely beginners, or experienced horse people wanting more finesse. Because they do produce both types.
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    01-20-2013, 08:55 AM
  #68
Green Broke
My opinion of Parelli is...

That once upon a time there was a guy that was an okay horse handler. Had a little experience in quite a few different areas of horses. Had a nice little wife and was making a decent little life.

Somehow urban sprawl hit, someone told this guy he was special in how he handled horses, and he believed them. Although, he was pretty average in actually caring for horses, his looks appealed to a wider market, and he kind of savvied the suburban horse crazy women who were populating his formerly agricultural area.

Basically, he saw an opportunity and took it. Some chica from down under, who had also been told she was special and she believed it, likewise saw an opportunity of both time and dollars and wisely positioned herself to be useful.
     
    01-20-2013, 09:27 AM
  #69
Foal
First off, I have spent too much money on Parelli stuff. I was new to horses, eagar to learn, but didn't know the first thing about training/handling a horse (ergo, didn't know a thing about horse trainers, DVD or in person). From this experience I figured out how to separate marketing from training. The most expensive is not always the best.

Look at any training program and ask yourself these questions.
Am I training the horse something I'll have to untrain later?
Like making the horse move his butt away everytime I look at his hip ..... bet your farrier loves that one.
Backing your horse by shaking the lead rope. Real handy when tying your horse in the trailer and you fumble the lead rope tying the knot and your horse starts to back out. Remember, don't yell at the horse, you taught him this move!
There are plenty of little things like this, but take the approach of "is what I'm learning/teaching the horse" based in scientific fact and is it documented? The "why" not just the "how" and "if I teach my horse this, will it effect more advanced training.

In summary, separate the marketing from the training and are you learning substance or "gee whiz". Standing on your horse while he is laying down and you are cracking a whip over him looks fantastic to the novice, but has no practical application in the real horse world (sorry not a Parelli trick, but you get the idea). Do your homework and spend your money wisely, horses are expensive enough!
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    01-20-2013, 10:29 AM
  #70
Trained
Here is a sample of what I object to:
"The #1 Horsemanship Program in the World

If you truly love horses and have an interest in natural horse training, you'll love the Parelli Method of Natural Horsemanship Education - a holistic approach to natural horse training based on developing a natural relationship with your horse through understanding his/her nature and understanding the world from the horse's point of view.

The Parelli Program and Mission

The Parelli Natural Horse Training Method combines in-depth equine psychology and common sense communication techniques into the ultimate recipe for horse and rider success. It allows horse owners at all levels of experience (from trail rider to Olympic level Dressage rider) to achieve success without force, partnership without dominance and harmony without coercion. Our wider goal is to help create a better world for horses and the people who love them through the non-profit Parelli Foundation. We hope you will become a Parelli Natural Horsemanship Member, and join us in this noble goal.

Parelli Membership – Essential for Natural Horsemanship Progress

For those who want to understand horses and learn the revolutionary Parelli Program for natural horse training, we have created a natural horsemanship member's club. Parelli Members can learn the Parelli Natural Horse Training Method through a multitude of means within a community site created for their success and development, as well as through local clinics taught by Parelli Endorsed Professional Instructors & Horse Trainers, at Parelli horse training show events and by attending natural horsemanship workshops at our horse training centers in the U.S., the you.K. And Australia.

Results

One of the magical results of Parelli natural horse training method is that your horse becomes willing to do what you ask, and your horse training problems are solved naturally and without force or punishment. You and your horse learn to work together in alignment with the horse's Horsenality (unique horse personality), which is why we call our approach Natural HorseManShip."
Parelli Horse Training - Natural Horsemanship - Equine Trainer

Underlining and boldface is mine.


"It’s 8:00 on a crisp, cool Saturday morning. You and a few of your closest friends are just pulling into the arena parking lot when you see – and hear – the laughing, dancing, screaming crowd outside. They’re snapping pictures on their phones, sipping hot coffee out of their thermoses, and they’re all wondering the same thing you are:

“What are we going to see?!”


The 2013 Parelli Horse & Soul is all about expecting the unexpected. Like your favorite band changing up their set list at each show...

...Linda Parelli has spent the last five years immersing herself in the world of dressage, discovering ways of applying natural horsemanship principles to the world outside of Parelli. Don’t worry – you don’t need to own a pair of jodhpurs to identify with what Linda is teaching. You just need a love of horses and a desire for never-ending self-improvement. Linda shares her revolutionary work in horse psychology, as well as sharing the secret to achieving contact in her Game of Contact sessions."
Expect the Unexpected at the 2013 Parelli Horse & Soul Tour :: Parelli Natural Horse Training

Someone who wants to convince me that isn't dripping with marketing hype is going to have an uphill battle! If Pat Parelli wants to be taken seriously, then perhaps he ought to ACT seriously! If you act like someone who sells snake oil, then you ought to expect to be treated like a snake oil salesman...
     

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