2nd time lunging/join up - Page 2 - The Horse Forum

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post #11 of 26 Old 12-01-2012, 08:56 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you horselady if I can't borrow a lunge whip I will use a stick with something soft at the end :) and desensitise him to it. I will have to write these things on some thing as I don't want to ruin the his lunging education if he has any :)

The foolish reject what they see, not what they think,
The wise reject what they think, not what they see.
-Huang Po
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post #12 of 26 Old 12-01-2012, 09:08 PM
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He is trying to keep the connection with you and you drive him away. He tries to reestablish connection and you drive him away. You are off to a good start without the lunge whip but there are other things to teach beside trotting around. When you asked him to move to the rail you followed him as he walked. That in itself is teaching him when you stay off his hip and the two of you walk around the perimeter. Stop and see if he will stop. Then start again. This is called driving from behind. Horses in a herd do this. This can teach so much more than making him trot in ciecles.
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post #13 of 26 Old 12-01-2012, 10:21 PM
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First of all, your horse wanted a good roll. Next time, put him in by himself for a few minutes where he can do what he pleases without you in there. Let his attention wander, let him roll, let him get bored for a few minutes.
Then go in, and yes, a lunge whip will help a lot. When you go in, you now require him to focus on you. That's what you want to keep in mind throughout any work with him, and keep asking yourself; "is he with me? Mentally?" until he is, there is no join up happening.

If you walked into that round yard, and your horse walked up to you politely, stopped an arm's distance away and waited for your direction , you could call that enough and quit for the day. If he ignores you, or walks up and "over" you, then you've got work to do. Or, better yet, if he walks up, appearing to be "with" you, but when you ask him to move off a bit, and he goes off but when you stop asking him to move away, he doesnt' turn back toward you for more direction, then you need to work on him.

More coming . . . .
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post #14 of 26 Old 12-01-2012, 10:38 PM
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So, lets say you go in, he comes up to you, you pet him a bit and then send him off. You want him to keep going when you say "go", but if you stop saying go, you want him to turn around and look for you. You want to be able to both send him away from you and draw him back.
It looked like you did mostly sending in that video, and that's ok to start with. Your horse was a bit irritated because at times you would send him, then you kind of blocked him a bit with your body, got kind of stiff and said "Whoa" ( or at least that's what it sounded like). So, it seemed like you were sending him, then squashing that send. If you want him to go forward, let him do so and don't worry about shaping it yet. Just get him to move forward . If you want him to whoa, then get a whoa and don't go to something else until you get that. Decide waht you want, GET IT and stick with it.

You want to be able to send him away from you at either a walk , a trot, a fast trot, or a canter. Just as you would riding him. If he is sucking back when you send him (and he was in that video), not giving you and honest forward when you asked for it, then you'd better address THAT first. You do what ever it takes to make him break loose and run forward, with full commitment. And you don't micromanage that . If you have a whip and raising it a little bit does not make him increase his speed/energy, then raise it more, then crack it. Use as little as possible, but as much as needed TO GET A CHANGE!. If you don't see a change, you didn't do enough, and you are building in dullnesss.

It's just like riding your horse; if you put your leg on and he blows you off, you put it on harder, he ignorse you or tightens a wee bit, you put a crop on him and he shuffles a wee bit faster, and you stop asking, then that's all you'll get. Is that enough of a change for you to be satisfied? Is that the level of responsiveness you want in your horse? Not me.

I want my horse to leap forward from my leg. So, in the round pen, if I apply a signal to go, using an increase in my body energy, and that doesn't work, I go to a lifted whip, and if he slumps into a pissy little version of a trot, I will do whatever it takes to wake him up. I want him to move out, looking at me with one eye and one ear, looking for the next instruction.

Because, eventually, the next instruction will be, slow down. Then spped up, then slow down, then turn around, then canter off, then slow down, then look back here, then curve around and since I have stopped my feet, YOU should realize that I am not driving you, it's time for you to stop running and come back. That's when you can "draw" your horse, by backing away from it.

Last edited by tinyliny; 12-01-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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post #15 of 26 Old 12-01-2012, 10:41 PM
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Once you can send it, and send it with responsiveness, then you start drawing it, and sending it and drawing it and then walk off and see if it'll follow you.

This is how I do join up, per se. I want to test to see if my horse is connected enough that even if I send it away, when the pressure's off, will he look back to me for direction, or will he look outward. If he choosed outward focus, then I have to start being MORE interesting, MORE important than what ever iit is he's focussed on out there.

I am not sure I explained this very well, but it's what came tumbling out of my mind.

It's much harder to do than it appears to be. I think once you get more clear about what you want your hrose to do, and be very clear in your body, and have expectations for him, and reward him in a timely way, you'll see a connection happening that is real, not just him kind of going through the motions.

Last edited by tinyliny; 12-01-2012 at 10:45 PM.
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post #16 of 26 Old 12-01-2012, 11:31 PM
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I think you explained that very well tiny liny. Way better than I ever could.
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post #17 of 26 Old 12-02-2012, 12:47 AM
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I think my points ADD to yours, not differ. I talk a lot about the idea that you are looking for, but I find it hard to explain step by step how you DO this. So much easier to learn by being taught by another, and one is always refining and learning how to do it better and better.
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post #18 of 26 Old 12-02-2012, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peppy Barrel Racing View Post
Oh and I forgot to mention a couple of times there towards the end of your video he switched directions back and forth it appeared to be because of your body position and body language he wasn't sure what direction you wanted. And your join up isnt bad though you need to get him closer to you and invite him in more. I don't do join up that way so I'm not entirely sure how to make that way better for you. Here is a video of me playing join up with my colts. It's not in a round pen but I do the same when I lunge. Of you wanna try this way make sure to not make direct eye contact you angle your shoulder towards their face/nose and use you shoulder and lowered hand to invite them in. So it's not a great video I took it with my cell phone that I laid on my gate. Maybe there's something you can make use of. Keep practicing you'll get the hang of it

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Ok, I watched your video of you playing wiht the yearlings (right? Yearlings?) and it shows you drawing them nicely. Their thought is on you, and when they got stuck (their feet didnt' move to follow you when you stepped away from them), you went around to the side, to break out their feet. Good. That works because they are thinking on you, but not enough to move toward you, but as you move to the side, they follow you with their eyes, and wanting to keep you in their eyes, they start to move their feet so they can turn around and keep you in their eyes. Once they move their feet, they are unstuck and will likely follow you forward.

If you sent them away from you, could your draw them back? Can you make their thought strong enough connected to you that they would stop moving away from you, when you stopped pushing, and instead of keeping going outward, would they turn and come back to you? That's a fun kind of thing to do with them. Too much pressure and they flee, but not enought draw and they drift off.

Nice quite work, Peppy
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post #19 of 26 Old 12-02-2012, 04:49 AM Thread Starter
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thank you guys I did some more join up today, and I have no idea why I did this but when my horse didn't get that interested in me I sent him away and he came back to me with more interest. Does this sound like the way to go ? I just randomly did it. I have been rewarding him when he comes to me with a scratches and rubs and wither rub sometimes. I didn't get to lunge today .. but I will probably do some more as its school holidays.

The foolish reject what they see, not what they think,
The wise reject what they think, not what they see.
-Huang Po
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post #20 of 26 Old 12-02-2012, 04:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny View Post
So, lets say you go in, he comes up to you, you pet him a bit and then send him off. You want him to keep going when you say "go", but if you stop saying go, you want him to turn around and look for you. You want to be able to both send him away from you and draw him back.
It looked like you did mostly sending in that video, and that's ok to start with. Your horse was a bit irritated because at times you would send him, then you kind of blocked him a bit with your body, got kind of stiff and said "Whoa" ( or at least that's what it sounded like). So, it seemed like you were sending him, then squashing that send. If you want him to go forward, let him do so and don't worry about shaping it yet. Just get him to move forward . If you want him to whoa, then get a whoa and don't go to something else until you get that. Decide waht you want, GET IT and stick with it.

You want to be able to send him away from you at either a walk , a trot, a fast trot, or a canter. Just as you would riding him. If he is sucking back when you send him (and he was in that video), not giving you and honest forward when you asked for it, then you'd better address THAT first. You do what ever it takes to make him break loose and run forward, with full commitment. And you don't micromanage that . If you have a whip and raising it a little bit does not make him increase his speed/energy, then raise it more, then crack it. Use as little as possible, but as much as needed TO GET A CHANGE!. If you don't see a change, you didn't do enough, and you are building in dullnesss.

It's just like riding your horse; if you put your leg on and he blows you off, you put it on harder, he ignorse you or tightens a wee bit, you put a crop on him and he shuffles a wee bit faster, and you stop asking, then that's all you'll get. Is that enough of a change for you to be satisfied? Is that the level of responsiveness you want in your horse? Not me.

I want my horse to leap forward from my leg. So, in the round pen, if I apply a signal to go, using an increase in my body energy, and that doesn't work, I go to a lifted whip, and if he slumps into a pissy little version of a trot, I will do whatever it takes to wake him up. I want him to move out, looking at me with one eye and one ear, looking for the next instruction.

Because, eventually, the next instruction will be, slow down. Then spped up, then slow down, then turn around, then canter off, then slow down, then look back here, then curve around and since I have stopped my feet, YOU should realize that I am not driving you, it's time for you to stop running and come back. That's when you can "draw" your horse, by backing away from it.
woops I didn't see your message until now. I do understand what you are saying most of the time I was blocking him from going faster and changing my mind all the time. I think it was because I was confused and unsure of how to handle the situation. But now I understand that I have to use a whip to move his body over (and teach a command for him to go forwards and outwards) and stick with what signal I am giving, and get a response quickly no matter what. Thank you every one you are really helping me understand join up.

The foolish reject what they see, not what they think,
The wise reject what they think, not what they see.
-Huang Po
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