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advice for horse not turning where i want?

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        06-23-2014, 04:17 PM
      #21
    Yearling
    Since:
    All of this happened in front of the trainer (i was only told to use more leg)
    Dixie has also done this to the trainer
    And I have previously used the same cues successfully

    I am more and more confident that I am using the correct cues

    So ... for now ... we can put the question of whether or not I am doing it correctly aside for a few moments

    Do I work her harder and harder until she is compliant?
    Do I get off her and lunge her?

    I will use TXhorseman's advice of more frequent and short sessions

    Should I do circles? Figure 8's? Serpentines?


    --- I have another session with the trainer scheduled for this coming sunday afternoon

    And thank you everyone for your advice -- I am really getting a lot out of this
         
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        06-23-2014, 05:09 PM
      #22
    Yearling
    If your horse isn't getting it then you need to break it down into smaller steps. If you think you are doing everything right and the horse is still not responding accordingly then you have to help her figure out what you want. Working her harder isn't the answer. She is confused, not "naughty".

    Set up some type of marker like an orange cone or barrel, bucket or something you can both easily see. Trot to the marker on a straight line. When you get to the marker apply the aids. When she complies (bends and gets soft), release immediately. Release of pressure is her reward for doing the right thing.

    I am guessing she is very braced throughout her neck and back. Kind of like riding a board. You have to help her bend through her neck and ribcage and get some softness through her body. Once she gets the idea you can ask her to hold the bend on her own for a few strides on a circle. If she loses the bend you can help her find it again.

    You can do circles and serpentines all day long, but if you aren't helping her bend her body (straight on the circle) then you are training her to be stiff and braced.

    How does your trainer tell you to bend her?
    tinyliny, dlady, jmike and 1 others like this.
         
        06-23-2014, 05:21 PM
      #23
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sahara    
    If your horse isn't getting it then you need to break it down into smaller steps. If you think you are doing everything right and the horse is still not responding accordingly then you have to help her figure out what you want. Working her harder isn't the answer. She is confused, not "naughty".
    she is definitely not confused
    I know which direction she wants to go
    Back towards the house

    If I decide to turn her in the direction she wants to go -- no problem at all

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sahara    
    Set up some type of marker like an orange cone or barrel, bucket or something you can both easily see. Trot to the marker on a straight line. When you get to the marker apply the aids. When she complies (bends and gets soft), release immediately. Release of pressure is her reward for doing the right thing.
    i really like the cone/bucket idea

    I am familiar with pressure/release/timing (not saying I am good at it, but I try) --- I keep pressure off of her unless I want something specific -- like turning, speeding up, slowing down, ect...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sahara    
    I am guessing she is very braced throughout her neck and back. Kind of like riding a board. You have to help her bend through her neck and ribcage and get some softness through her body. Once she gets the idea you can ask her to hold the bend on her own for a few strides on a circle. If she loses the bend you can help her find it again.

    You can do circles and serpentines all day long, but if you aren't helping her bend her body (straight on the circle) then you are training her to be stiff and braced.
    i know how to get her to bend and soften at the standstill and I think you are right and I should probably start working on that everytime before I ride

    Not sure how to do it in motion

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sahara    
    How does your trainer tell you to bend her?
    she doesn't -- she knows I am a beginner and not familiar with the terminology or the motions to make it happen

    We have been keeping it pretty simple
         
        06-23-2014, 05:37 PM
      #24
    Green Broke
    Every time a horse makes a decision to go a certain direction I automatically go the opposite direction. My guess is you have been letting her make some decisions and she is taking charge.
    If you always make the decision it will never be a problem.
    I will ad that I have seen many people that call themselves a trainer that really have no clue. I will reserve my opinion until after I see video/photos or something so we can help you.
    jmike likes this.
         
        06-23-2014, 05:42 PM
      #25
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by churumbeque    
    Every time a horse makes a decision to go a certain direction I automatically go the opposite direction. My guess is you have been letting her make some decisions and she is taking charge.
    If you always make the decision it will never be a problem.
    I will ad that I have seen many people that call themselves a trainer that really have no clue. I will reserve my opinion until after I see video/photos or something so we can help you.
    i am not a trainer --- I have a trainer and take lessons

    If she is going in the direction I want to go, I do not correct her -- if she is not going where I want, I correct her and have even taken her back to the place we were and run through it again and again until we go the direction I want to go
         
        06-23-2014, 06:05 PM
      #26
    Trained
    Here are a couple of things I did with Mia:

    1 - The Cones of Confusion. 3 cones, set far enough apart that I could do a very tight figure 8 between any two. I'd enter the CoC between two cones, and then decide if I wanted to go left, right, or around the far cone. This prevented Mia from knowing in advance what I wanted, since I didn't know myself. It forced her to wait for my cues. I also kept the option of blowing straight thru the CoC, or circling around them on the outside for variety.

    2 - I set 2 cones further apart than with the CoC. Perpendicular to the line between them, and extending out 70-80 feet, another cone, forming a tall isosceles triangle. We could do a figure 8, or just go around one cone, and then head back to the far cone. That way, she would do a turn or two at the most before getting a straight line. We could walk the double cones and then trot to the far one, etc. We could also canter a loop around all of the cones. That kept us from doing the same thing over and over again.

    However, this:
    she is definitely not confused
    I know which direction she wants to go
    Back towards the house

    If I decide to turn her in the direction she wants to go -- no problem at all

    Makes me think she is being naughty. That isn't confusion or not being physically capable of turning. It is defiance - "You're not the boss of me!" Mia only does that once in a great while, and never for very long, so I cannot give a lot of tested advice.

    However, what the trainer had me do when she was working with both of us was work her in a round pen from the ground. Nothing complex, but W/T/C, turns outside and inside, going the pace I wanted & the distance I wanted. The first few times, Mia did a lot of kicking in the air and galloping when told to walk or trot.

    In the saddle, I've been very aggressive with her if she tries to turn the wrong way or against my wishes. That goes back to her "pre-curb bit" days, when she would fight a snaffle or rope sidepull halter. She got to choose how much pressure was applied. If she turned her head to the left when asked with a pinkie, that was great. If it took my shoulder and back...that was OK too. Her choice. I'd ask with an opening rein. Pressure escalated from there. On a couple of occasions, when I needed to turn us immediately on a trail to prevent us from hitting something very nasty or going off a small ledge, then 'tear her face off' might describe my reaction. Just as a horse may decide it can accept your kicking as preferable to going faster, it can accept small tugs or leg pressure and ignore them.

    Without seeing what is going on, it is hard to give good advice. How does your trainer handle it when she refuses to go the right direction for her?
    jmike likes this.
         
        06-23-2014, 07:23 PM
      #27
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    makes me think she is being naughty.
    Horses have no concept of what your idea of right or wrong is. So, it isn't being naughty. It is just a horse doing what it would like to do in that moment.

    Just like every time my horse wants to nose dive for the grass when I lead her somewhere. She knows not to do it with me because she gets a correction the instant her head starts to lower. Now she knows what I expect of her and never tries to eat with me. Get my daughter out leading her and she gets her nose in the grass for as long as she likes because my daughter has neither the strength to correct her (she is 7) nor the desire to. So, if the horse tries it with me, it isn't being naughty. She just wants to follow her desire to eat. One correction and she remembers, "oh yeah. This meanie never lets me eat. Where's the cute little short human?"
    tinyliny likes this.
         
        06-23-2014, 07:24 PM
      #28
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jmike    
    she doesn't -- she knows I am a beginner and not familiar with the terminology or the motions to make it happen

    We have been keeping it pretty simple
    Bending is one of the basic fundamentals of riding I feel everyone should learn when they are first starting out. It's one of the best ways for you to learn feel, how your horse moves under you, etc.
    Sahara, jmike and sarahfromsc like this.
         
        06-23-2014, 08:10 PM
      #29
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sahara    
    Horses have no concept of what your idea of right or wrong is. So, it isn't being naughty. It is just a horse doing what it would like to do in that moment...
    Yes, it is "naughty" if the horse has been trained to obey certain cues and then refuses. Training means conveying to the horse what my idea of right & wrong is, and convincing it that my ideas will be enforced. One can use other terms if it makes one happy, but deliberate refusal to do what the horse has been trained to do is the horse saying, "You're not the boss of me!"

    When my mare decides to take one of the gelding's food, the gelding knows he is supposed to move away. Otherwise bad things happen. Does he know he is 'naughty'? Well, he sure knows he is disobeying a rule, and that the rule will be enforced.

    When you are teaching a horse something, and it doesn't know what you want, you need to be unemotional and remember the horse is not misbehaving. It can't misbehave if it doesn't know what you want.

    But when it knows, and refuses, then my lead mare at least believes in getting angry. She doesn't discipline dispassionately. She does it with indignation and self-righteous fury.

    As a rider, I may or may not let emotion enter it, but my response to a horse who knows what I want and refuses is very different from my response to a horse who is trying to figure out what I want. With an untrained horse, disobedience is just the horse being a horse. With a trained horse, it is rebellion.
    dlady and jmike like this.
         
        06-23-2014, 08:50 PM
      #30
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    Yes, it is "naughty" if the horse has been trained to obey certain cues and then refuses. Training means conveying to the horse what my idea of right & wrong is, and convincing it that my ideas will be enforced. One can use other terms if it makes one happy, but deliberate refusal to do what the horse has been trained to do is the horse saying, "You're not the boss of me!"
    I have to slightly agree with you here. However, there is a fine line between naughty and confused. Since he has said the horse does it even with his trainer I highly doubt this is a case of being naughty. I think this horse is very confused and is getting mixed signals.

    If this were something where she was steering perfectly then one day stopped, then I would say it's being naughty. But that seems not the case.
    jmike likes this.
         

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