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advice for horse not turning where i want?

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  • Horse goes direction she wants

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    06-24-2014, 01:32 AM
  #41
Super Moderator
After reading more on this thread, I think the horse is resisting the turns out of willfulness. Call it naughty if you like, but she is carrying her thought through into action, and the more she is successful at it, the harder it is to change.

Personally, I do not think it's a crime to turn her the way she wants. It's not so much that, for example, you go right and she also wants to go right, it's about HOW she goes right. It has to be YOUR idea, your speed, your arc of a circle to follow. So, go ahead and USE her thought to your benefit. Her desire to go that way can actually give you some impetus to bend to your needs.

start the turn in the direction she wants to go, but use your inside leg and try to disallow her to "fall in" onto her inside shoulder and cut the corner, or turn around really tight and short, like a gate swinging fast on its' hinges. The trick is to put bend into her body and make her keep her inside shoulder up, meaning, stay even on her shoulders.

Once you can feel what it feels like to move a hrose's shoulders over, you'll know when you need to do that, when she is falling in. This is almost the OPPOSITE of the "semi-truck " analogy I was talking about.
That is "falling out".

So, for example. She wants to go LEFT. You try to turn right, she powers through her left shoulder because she wants to go left, even though her neck is sharply "broken", like the semi cab off at angle from the trailer. That's "falling out" through the shoulder. You have TOO MUCH bend. You need to not give her so much left rein so that her neck cannot bend so far off to the right and get that "broken" position. Use your outside rein to kind of create a "wall" against her neck, and your outside leg , too, and your inside rein to tell her to turn right but not yank her neck way over.

For the other one, the "falling in" , the swinging like a gate one. . . . Say she wants to go right, and maybe you start to turn right and she cuts hard and sharp right, the answer is to put MORE bend, using inside leg, more inside rein and maybe move your outside rein off her neck a bit to encourage her to step back onto her outside shoulder. If she moves outward, that's ok. If she disengages, that, too is ok. You get her to stop this idea of powering through the turn, you take back the helm and you can turn, even in the direction she wants to go, but at YOUR direction/speed and quality of movement.

And, when she gives in to this, you give her a bit of rein, give her praise, and let her walk forward a bit .
     
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    06-24-2014, 01:36 AM
  #42
Green Broke
Building on what Tiny said, basically if she wants to go right you MAKE her go right until she wants to go left. If she wants to go left, you MAKE her go left till she wishes she would have went right.

I had this problem with a pony running backwards. The only fix was making him back up so much that he no longer wanted to back up anymore. It turned into my idea instead of his.

Great advice Tiny
dlady and jmike like this.
     
    06-24-2014, 07:12 AM
  #43
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinella    
If you are a beginner and your trainer struggled with her it definitely makes me think she may need someone else to have a few rides on her.

Your trainer can get her working a bit better for you you can get on and feel what it should be like and work through those cues, she will probably go backwards slightly during your ride then your trainer rides her again, you ride and continue this way as needed. I had some clients who I worked like this with and we backed down to me doing one ride a month for 6 months. They've built up their skills and no longe need me to ride at all.
i work her and get after her and I know what it should feel like

I have had a little bit of success with her, and then when I don't ride her for a while, she reverts --- so I am trying to figure out what is the best way to work her
     
    06-24-2014, 07:16 AM
  #44
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Delete.    
Building on what Tiny said, basically if she wants to go right you MAKE her go right until she wants to go left. If she wants to go left, you MAKE her go left till she wishes she would have went right.

I had this problem with a pony running backwards. The only fix was making him back up so much that he no longer wanted to back up anymore. It turned into my idea instead of his.

Great advice Tiny
my trainer has suggested taking her where she wants to go and work the dog out of her
bsms likes this.
     
    06-24-2014, 07:17 AM
  #45
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
after reading more on this thread, I think the horse is resisting the turns out of willfulness. Call it naughty if you like, but she is carrying her thought through into action, and the more she is successful at it, the harder it is to change.

Personally, I do not think it's a crime to turn her the way she wants. It's not so much that, for example, you go right and she also wants to go right, it's about HOW she goes right. It has to be YOUR idea, your speed, your arc of a circle to follow. So, go ahead and USE her thought to your benefit. Her desire to go that way can actually give you some impetus to bend to your needs.

Start the turn in the direction she wants to go, but use your inside leg and try to disallow her to "fall in" onto her inside shoulder and cut the corner, or turn around really tight and short, like a gate swinging fast on its' hinges. The trick is to put bend into her body and make her keep her inside shoulder up, meaning, stay even on her shoulders.

Once you can feel what it feels like to move a hrose's shoulders over, you'll know when you need to do that, when she is falling in. This is almost the OPPOSITE of the "semi-truck " analogy I was talking about.
That is "falling out".

So, for example. She wants to go LEFT. You try to turn right, she powers through her left shoulder because she wants to go left, even though her neck is sharply "broken", like the semi cab off at angle from the trailer. That's "falling out" through the shoulder. You have TOO MUCH bend. You need to not give her so much left rein so that her neck cannot bend so far off to the right and get that "broken" position. Use your outside rein to kind of create a "wall" against her neck, and your outside leg , too, and your inside rein to tell her to turn right but not yank her neck way over.

For the other one, the "falling in" , the swinging like a gate one. . . . Say she wants to go right, and maybe you start to turn right and she cuts hard and sharp right, the answer is to put MORE bend, using inside leg, more inside rein and maybe move your outside rein off her neck a bit to encourage her to step back onto her outside shoulder. If she moves outward, that's ok. If she disengages, that, too is ok. You get her to stop this idea of powering through the turn, you take back the helm and you can turn, even in the direction she wants to go, but at YOUR direction/speed and quality of movement.

And, when she gives in to this, you give her a bit of rein, give her praise, and let her walk forward a bit .
that is a lot of information to take in at 5am :p

Thanks tinyliny -- I will read it a few mroe times today so it sinks in
     
    06-24-2014, 11:08 AM
  #46
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
after reading more on this thread, I think the horse is resisting the turns out of willfulness. Call it naughty if you like, but she is carrying her thought through into action, and the more she is successful at it, the harder it is to change.

Personally, I do not think it's a crime to turn her the way she wants. It's not so much that, for example, you go right and she also wants to go right, it's about HOW she goes right. It has to be YOUR idea, your speed, your arc of a circle to follow. So, go ahead and USE her thought to your benefit. Her desire to go that way can actually give you some impetus to bend to your needs.
i started a little on that this Sunday -- I wanted to go left, she wanted to go left -- I initiated the turn, and wanted a nice soft arcing turn --- she turned hard and sharp -- so I started trying to turn her right to go back to where we were and do it again

I kept her head and neck turned to the right, she powered through it going forward/leftish until we got up to the brush line -- I didn't release, but she slowed down a little, and I finally got her to turn right --- right through the brush

Went back to where we started the turn and did it again
3rd time I finally made it to the point I wanted to make it to and made her do a full circle to the right and then back to the trainer

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
start the turn in the direction she wants to go, but use your inside leg and try to disallow her to "fall in" onto her inside shoulder and cut the corner, or turn around really tight and short, like a gate swinging fast on its' hinges. The trick is to put bend into her body and make her keep her inside shoulder up, meaning, stay even on her shoulders.
do I shift my inside leg forward a tad, and press her shoulder back into place or more inline with where I want it to be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
Once you can feel what it feels like to move a hrose's shoulders over, you'll know when you need to do that, when she is falling in. This is almost the OPPOSITE of the "semi-truck " analogy I was talking about.
That is "falling out".

So, for example. She wants to go LEFT. You try to turn right, she powers through her left shoulder because she wants to go left, even though her neck is sharply "broken", like the semi cab off at angle from the trailer. That's "falling out" through the shoulder. You have TOO MUCH bend. You need to not give her so much left rein so that her neck cannot bend so far off to the right and get that "broken" position. Use your outside rein to kind of create a "wall" against her neck, and your outside leg , too, and your inside rein to tell her to turn right but not yank her neck way over.
i never yank, I pull a little, and let go if she turns -- if not, I pull a little more, and I just keep gradually pulling more and more -- I try to keep it a smooth gradual pull without yanking (mostly because I am afraid that if I yank too fast or hard, she'll flip over her should and take me with her)


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
for the other one, the "falling in" , the swinging like a gate one. . . . Say she wants to go right, and maybe you start to turn right and she cuts hard and sharp right, the answer is to put MORE bend, using inside leg, more inside rein and maybe move your outside rein off her neck a bit to encourage her to step back onto her outside shoulder. If she moves outward, that's ok. If she disengages, that, too is ok. You get her to stop this idea of powering through the turn, you take back the helm and you can turn, even in the direction she wants to go, but at YOUR direction/speed and quality of movement.

And, when she gives in to this, you give her a bit of rein, give her praise, and let her walk forward a bit .
thanks tinyliny --- great and very detailed advice
     
    06-24-2014, 01:23 PM
  #47
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmike    
my trainer has suggested taking her where she wants to go and work the dog out of her
What is that teaching the horse exactly? I am trying to think it through and all the horse will get out of it is that if you both want to go the same way she gets to work harder for complying?

Can't you feel her pulling/leaning/energy flowing way before she does what SHE wants to do? Get her attention before it leaves you, before she connects her idea of turning into the action of turning. So that means you give her something else to think about like a turn on the forehand, or a turn on the haunches, maybe a sidepass or backing up. Get her attention on you and keep it on you before she decides to do what she wants. You have to be 100% with the horse, no letting your mind wander on the beautiful landscape.

Horses can't learn anything if they aren't calm and focused on you. If she is ready to turn towards home when you want to go the other way - she isn't with you. Your job is to get her mind back on you. It doesn't have to be a fight or "a work the dog out of her". Stay one step ahead of her the whole way.
     
    06-24-2014, 01:46 PM
  #48
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahara    
What is that teaching the horse exactly? I am trying to think it through and all the horse will get out of it is that if you both want to go the same way she gets to work harder for complying?
the opposite

She gets worked harder for NOT complying

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahara    
Can't you feel her pulling/leaning/energy flowing way before she does what SHE wants to do? Get her attention before it leaves you, before she connects her idea of turning into the action of turning. So that means you give her something else to think about like a turn on the forehand, or a turn on the haunches, maybe a sidepass or backing up. Get her attention on you and keep it on you before she decides to do what she wants. You have to be 100% with the horse, no letting your mind wander on the beautiful landscape.
no -- she does not indicate where she wants to go with her head, ears, balance, or anything else prior to me making the decision to turn the direction I want to go

Also -- we do not turn on haunches, forehand, nor do we sidepass -- we just turn ( I am a beginner )

We only have this issue at the trot -- so I don't know how I should go about trotting, backing her up, and then trotting into a turn -- or I am misunderstanding that bit

I always focus on what I do, what the horse does, and what is going on around me while trotting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sahara    
Horses can't learn anything if they aren't calm and focused on you. If she is ready to turn towards home when you want to go the other way - she isn't with you. Your job is to get her mind back on you. It doesn't have to be a fight or "a work the dog out of her". Stay one step ahead of her the whole way.
how do I get her mind back on me without doing something to get her mind back on me?

We make the wrong thing hard (work her hard, rapid changes of direction, in the area she wants to be in)

We make the right thing easy -- standard basic trotting with easy/soft turns in the area I want to be in
     
    06-24-2014, 01:47 PM
  #49
Trained
Here is another tip to think about:

When I was 20, I had a chance to visit a friend on a small ranch. They gave me a horse to ride who could cut cattle on his own & who was excellent with beginners. About a week before I went, an old cowboy told me that if you really had problems turning a horse, to lean back and wallop the outside shoulder with your heel.

Well, my luck being what it was & is, I rode into about 100 acres of pasture with some cattle and the horse bolted. I bent his head around until his nose was nearly touching my left knee, but he was galloping full speed toward a barbed wire fence. Remembering what the cowboy told me, and having few other options except bailing off at high speed, I took hold of the horn, leaned back, and did my best to break his right shoulder with my heel.

After several wacks, the horse started turning left. We did a big, sweeping turn into a left circle, him still with his nose at my knee until he finally decided to slow down. And for the next few weeks, the horse rode fine. I don't know if a bee stung him or what.

So an option might be to take an over/under whip like this:



Or a crop if you ride English, and make it clear that if the horse doesn't turn left when asked for with the leg and reins, then the horse will get whacked on the outside shoulder - hard.

I've been on horses who would not accelerate no matter how hard you kicked, but one whack with a crop would change their attitude and they would go faster at a light squeeze. The principle would be the same - if you refuse to turn when I ask nicely a few times, my asking will stop being nice.

Might be a good idea to have a bucking strap on your saddle if you try it, tho.

Another possibility: If you are asking for a left turn nicely and not getting it, with the horse's head to the left, try reaching back and kicking the left side to push the rump to the right.

You might also practice disengaging the horse from the ground. I'm not sure how to describe it, but that might help the horse with the idea that when you want movement, she moves.
jmike likes this.
     
    06-24-2014, 01:50 PM
  #50
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
Here is another tip to think about:

When I was 20, I had a chance to visit a friend on a small ranch. They gave me a horse to ride who could cut cattle on his own & who was excellent with beginners. About a week before I went, an old cowboy told me that if you really had problems turning a horse, to lean back and wallop the outside shoulder with your heel.

Well, my luck being what it was & is, I rode into about 100 acres of pasture with some cattle and the horse bolted. I bent his head around until his nose was nearly touching my left knee, but he was galloping full speed toward a barbed wire fence. Remembering what the cowboy told me, and having few other options except bailing off at high speed, I took hold of the horn, leaned back, and did my best to break his right shoulder with my heel.

After several wacks, the horse started turning left. We did a big, sweeping turn into a left circle, him still with his nose at my knee until he finally decided to slow down. And for the next few weeks, the horse rode fine. I don't know if a bee stung him or what.

So an option might be to take an over/under whip like this:



Or a crop if you ride English, and make it clear that if the horse doesn't turn left when asked for with the leg and reins, then the horse will get whacked on the outside shoulder - hard.

I've been on horses who would not accelerate no matter how hard you kicked, but one whack with a crop would change their attitude and they would go faster at a light squeeze. The principle would be the same - if you refuse to turn when I ask nicely a few times, my asking will stop being nice.

Might be a good idea to have a bucking strap on your saddle if you try it, tho.
thanks bsms -- I like your stories

Not sure if I have the balance to lean back and kick her shoulder --- I definitely have the balance to crack her a few times with a riding crop though
     

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