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advice for horse not turning where i want?

6K views 81 replies 16 participants last post by  Sahara 
#1 · (Edited)
i know i have asked this before and i was hoping for some more ideas/information

dixie fights me on turning -- but only at a trott
-- if i want to go left, she wants to go right
-- if i want to go right, she wants to go left

do i work her harder and harder until she is compliant?
do i get off her and lunge her?

do i work her 30-45 minutes a day?
do i work her 2-3 hours every other day?

should i do circles? figure 8's? serpentines?
 
#5 ·
Does she do it with everyone, or just you?

What is her background/training?

What cues do you use to say, "Turn right now"?
i am pretty much the only one that rides her
i am bought her nearly a year ago - so i don't have any background info

lay outside rein on her neck (at a walk this turns her), squeeze outside leg, pull inside rein -- in that order


I doubt that it will get better by doing the same thing, but doing it harder .

are you direct reining or neck reining? what kind of bit was it?

when you turn at the walk, yoiu say that none of this happens? can you walk a square? can she turn on the huanches?

the reason I ask is that I may guess that she is overbending at the trot and her shoulders are "falling " out to opposite direction, so she goes that way, even though her head is bent in the direction you want to go? kind of like a semi-truck that is jackknifing? does this describe her?

the thing is you need to not over bend her. AND, she needs to learn to "follow her nose". learning how to do turns on the haunches and ride true squares will help.

using a loose ring snaffle

at a walk, i can turn her with just a neck rein, or i can turn her with just leg pressure --- i rarely have to use a direct rein anymore

i have never tried to walk a square

i don't know how to ask her to turn on her huanches

i am not sure what you mean by "falling", but when i do finally get her to turn the way i want, she drops her inside shoulder and turns real tight and fast (it is a pretty dramatic change)

yes --- exactly like a semi hi-jacking -- wow tinyliny that is so accurate, like her hind in is steering her instead of her front end, it's pushing her along the way she wants to go
 
#3 ·
I doubt that it will get better by doing the same thing, but doing it harder .

are you direct reining or neck reining? what kind of bit was it?

when you turn at the walk, yoiu say that none of this happens? can you walk a square? can she turn on the huanches?

the reason I ask is that I may guess that she is overbending at the trot and her shoulders are "falling " out to opposite direction, so she goes that way, even though her head is bent in the direction you want to go? kind of like a semi-truck that is jackknifing? does this describe her?

the thing is you need to not over bend her. AND, she needs to learn to "follow her nose". learning how to do turns on the haunches and ride true squares will help.
 
#4 ·
Think of your balance. If you are not balanced correctly, you may be fighting against yourself if you try harder. While turning at a trot should be no harder than turning at a walk, it often ends up being so. Riders tend to become more tense when they are trotting than when they are walking. As a result, they tend to depend more on force than on subtle changes in balance and pressure.

Try to think about these things. Try to feel what you are doing when you turn at the walk. Compare this to what you are doing when you are trying to turn while trotting.

Working for shorter periods more often is generally more beneficial that working more seldom but for longer periods of time.
 
#6 ·
Think of your balance. If you are not balanced correctly, you may be fighting against yourself if you try harder. While turning at a trot should be no harder than turning at a walk, it often ends up being so. Riders tend to become more tense when they are trotting than when they are walking. As a result, they tend to depend more on force than on subtle changes in balance and pressure.

Try to think about these things. Try to feel what you are doing when you turn at the walk. Compare this to what you are doing when you are trying to turn while trotting.

Working for shorter periods more often is generally more beneficial that working more seldom but for longer periods of time.
i am definitely not very balanced or coordinated at the trot --- something i am still working on and getting better at

my upper body is balanced and controlled, but from the waist down, it is all a mess
 
#10 ·
will try to get a video up when i can -- might be a week or so, depending on work and the weather

i don't think it is a matter of understanding the signals, she did the same thing to my trainer when she got on her --- nearly ran her into the tree line ... i think that was back in March when she did that
 
#11 ·
Be patient with yourself, jmike. Learning to ride well takes time.

In his book "Dancing with Horses" Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling includes the tale of a noble caballero whose entire life had been devoted to horses. People loved just to watch him ride. On his deathbed at age 96, a tear came to his eye. His nephew said, "What's wrong, uncle. You've lived a long and blessed life, and this time comes for every man." The uncle replied, "That's true, nephew, but my death comes at a most inopportune time. It was just last week that I learned what it truly means to ride."

Take your time and enjoy the journey.
 
#14 ·
I don't know if this will help your situation but with my mare I put on a lot of inside leg and so that when I pull her nose over the pressure of my leg pushes her hind end the way I want it to go. Sometimes we sidestepped the wrong way but once I got her bent around my leg I was able to give a quick squeeze that moves her forward the direction I want. Even though we sidestepped the wrong direction it helped line her up to move forward in the right direction so it wasn't a bad thing. My mare likes full calf contact on the inside leg at a turn, a little heel will get her pivoting on her hind. Took a lot of experiments to find what works. Hope that makes sense :D
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#15 ·
I don't know if this will help your situation but with my mare I put on a lot of inside leg and so that when I pull her nose over the pressure of my leg pushes her hind end the way I want it to go. Sometimes we sidestepped the wrong way but once I got her bent around my leg I was able to give a quick squeeze that moves her forward the direction I want. Even though we sidestepped the wrong direction it helped line her up to move forward in the right direction so it wasn't a bad thing. My mare likes full calf contact on the inside leg at a turn, a little heel will get her pivoting on her hind. Took a lot of experiments to find what works. Hope that makes sense :D
Posted via Mobile Device
This sounds like disengaging as well as letting your horse drop it's shoulder and whole body to the outside when you turn. Which can cause issues in the long run depending on what you want to accomplish
 
#19 ·
Since you don't know much about the horse's background, and since it happens with your trainer as well, I'll tell this story. FWIW:

When I bought Mia, I was told she was "Perfect for a beginner!" I rode Mia in a sidepull halter for 2+ years. She initially didn't want to go the way I asked her to, but it was hit & miss. Eventually she got pretty consistent about turning left with a left opening rein, which is what you have to do with a sidepull - pull the head to that side, not back on the rein.

However, Mia became more nervous as I asked more of her, and we eventually had a 2 hour blowout where I couldn't get her to stop and I took off a lot of hair with the gentle sidepull halter.

She then sat unridden for 8 months while I took lessons and rode Trooper.

The lady I hired to work with her was obviously puzzled by Mia. After 4 sessions, she told me some horses just had problems that couldn't always be trained out of them, but she didn't want to give up yet.

After the 5th session, she told me she had concluded that Mia had never been broke to ride. She said there were just too many things that were fundamental to even a green broke horse, and Mia didn't have them. The good news, she said, was that instead of having a horse who couldn't be trained, I might have an uncommonly good-hearted horse who needed breaking. So she started Mia at the very beginning, assuming she knew nothing about being ridden - in spite of my having ridden her for over 2 years.

Did it solve all of Mia's problems? No, but it laid a solid foundation for her to understand what I was asking. With all 4 horses that I've owned for a year or more, I've noticed that what I was sold wasn't what arrived at my corral. If I bought another horse now, I'd probably automatically have a trainer put at least a couple of weeks into working with the horse to assess what it knew and what it needed to know, and to make sure it had the fundamentals. I'm sure I could tell a trainer what I expected (which isn't much), and have the trainer tell me in a week of work if the horse had holes that would cause me a problem. At $50/session for 5 sessions, I would consider that $250 well invested.

In the 5+ years I've owned Mia, the 3 best decisions I've made with her were:

1 - Stop riding her and take some lessons.

2 - Have a trainer start her over from the beginning.

3 - Switch her to a curb bit even though she didn't neck rein and wasn't a 'finished horse'.

In fact, that is probably how I would rank order my good decisions about Mia, too!

Good luck! It may not apply to your horse, but it is something to toss in the back of your noggin! And note, it is a bit surprising, but this picture:



was taken at least a year before this picture :shock: :

 
#20 ·
I think quite a few people do not understand neck reining in its entirety. It is not laying a rein on the neck and having him move away from that pressure. That is a gross over simplification.

Neck reining begins with having the proper bend in the horse's body from poll to dock. You bend the horse's body and his neck will come into the outside rein and move from that pressure. I think you would be better off direct reining for now. As you begin to develop an independent seat your hands will get better and she will start improving as well.

There is a book that does a great job of explaining how, when, and why to use the seat, legs, and hands with illustrations that you might find helpful. It is titled The Handbook of Riding Essentials and was written by Francois Lemaire de Ruffieu.

The aids for a direct rein to make a right turn:
Right hand - Active, rotates a the wrist fingernails facing up. The movement of the hands is forward and to the right; the elbow remains in the hip area.

Left hand- Passive, goes forward and down to yield, to allow and then to regulate the action of the right hand.

Right leg- Active at the girth, slightly more forward than normal

Left leg- Active at the girth to maintain impulsion

Seat- more weight on the right seat bone

Horse response's
Nose moves to the right
Head moves to the right
Neck bends to the right
The right shoulder carries more weight than the left
Haunches follow the same path as his forehand
 
#21 ·
since:
all of this happened in front of the trainer (i was only told to use more leg)
Dixie has also done this to the trainer
and i have previously used the same cues successfully

i am more and more confident that i am using the correct cues

so ... for now ... we can put the question of whether or not i am doing it correctly aside for a few moments

Do I work her harder and harder until she is compliant?
Do I get off her and lunge her?

I will use TXhorseman's advice of more frequent and short sessions

Should I do circles? Figure 8's? Serpentines?


--- i have another session with the trainer scheduled for this coming sunday afternoon

and thank you everyone for your advice -- i am really getting a lot out of this
 
#22 ·
If your horse isn't getting it then you need to break it down into smaller steps. If you think you are doing everything right and the horse is still not responding accordingly then you have to help her figure out what you want. Working her harder isn't the answer. She is confused, not "naughty".

Set up some type of marker like an orange cone or barrel, bucket or something you can both easily see. Trot to the marker on a straight line. When you get to the marker apply the aids. When she complies (bends and gets soft), release immediately. Release of pressure is her reward for doing the right thing.

I am guessing she is very braced throughout her neck and back. Kind of like riding a board. You have to help her bend through her neck and ribcage and get some softness through her body. Once she gets the idea you can ask her to hold the bend on her own for a few strides on a circle. If she loses the bend you can help her find it again.

You can do circles and serpentines all day long, but if you aren't helping her bend her body (straight on the circle) then you are training her to be stiff and braced.

How does your trainer tell you to bend her?
 
#23 ·
If your horse isn't getting it then you need to break it down into smaller steps. If you think you are doing everything right and the horse is still not responding accordingly then you have to help her figure out what you want. Working her harder isn't the answer. She is confused, not "naughty".
she is definitely not confused
i know which direction she wants to go
back towards the house

if i decide to turn her in the direction she wants to go -- no problem at all

Set up some type of marker like an orange cone or barrel, bucket or something you can both easily see. Trot to the marker on a straight line. When you get to the marker apply the aids. When she complies (bends and gets soft), release immediately. Release of pressure is her reward for doing the right thing.
i really like the cone/bucket idea

i am familiar with pressure/release/timing (not saying i am good at it, but i try) --- i keep pressure off of her unless i want something specific -- like turning, speeding up, slowing down, ect...

I am guessing she is very braced throughout her neck and back. Kind of like riding a board. You have to help her bend through her neck and ribcage and get some softness through her body. Once she gets the idea you can ask her to hold the bend on her own for a few strides on a circle. If she loses the bend you can help her find it again.

You can do circles and serpentines all day long, but if you aren't helping her bend her body (straight on the circle) then you are training her to be stiff and braced.
i know how to get her to bend and soften at the standstill and i think you are right and i should probably start working on that everytime before i ride

not sure how to do it in motion

How does your trainer tell you to bend her?
she doesn't -- she knows i am a beginner and not familiar with the terminology or the motions to make it happen

we have been keeping it pretty simple
 
#24 ·
Every time a horse makes a decision to go a certain direction I automatically go the opposite direction. My guess is you have been letting her make some decisions and she is taking charge.
If you always make the decision it will never be a problem.
I will ad that I have seen many people that call themselves a trainer that really have no clue. I will reserve my opinion until after I see video/photos or something so we can help you.
 
#25 ·
i am not a trainer --- i have a trainer and take lessons

if she is going in the direction i want to go, i do not correct her -- if she is not going where i want, i correct her and have even taken her back to the place we were and run through it again and again until we go the direction i want to go
 
#26 ·
Here are a couple of things I did with Mia:

1 - The Cones of Confusion. 3 cones, set far enough apart that I could do a very tight figure 8 between any two. I'd enter the CoC between two cones, and then decide if I wanted to go left, right, or around the far cone. This prevented Mia from knowing in advance what I wanted, since I didn't know myself. It forced her to wait for my cues. I also kept the option of blowing straight thru the CoC, or circling around them on the outside for variety.

2 - I set 2 cones further apart than with the CoC. Perpendicular to the line between them, and extending out 70-80 feet, another cone, forming a tall isosceles triangle. We could do a figure 8, or just go around one cone, and then head back to the far cone. That way, she would do a turn or two at the most before getting a straight line. We could walk the double cones and then trot to the far one, etc. We could also canter a loop around all of the cones. That kept us from doing the same thing over and over again.

However, this:
she is definitely not confused
I know which direction she wants to go
Back towards the house

If I decide to turn her in the direction she wants to go -- no problem at all

makes me think she is being naughty. That isn't confusion or not being physically capable of turning. It is defiance - "You're not the boss of me!" Mia only does that once in a great while, and never for very long, so I cannot give a lot of tested advice.

However, what the trainer had me do when she was working with both of us was work her in a round pen from the ground. Nothing complex, but W/T/C, turns outside and inside, going the pace I wanted & the distance I wanted. The first few times, Mia did a lot of kicking in the air and galloping when told to walk or trot.

In the saddle, I've been very aggressive with her if she tries to turn the wrong way or against my wishes. That goes back to her "pre-curb bit" days, when she would fight a snaffle or rope sidepull halter. She got to choose how much pressure was applied. If she turned her head to the left when asked with a pinkie, that was great. If it took my shoulder and back...that was OK too. Her choice. I'd ask with an opening rein. Pressure escalated from there. On a couple of occasions, when I needed to turn us immediately on a trail to prevent us from hitting something very nasty or going off a small ledge, then 'tear her face off' might describe my reaction. Just as a horse may decide it can accept your kicking as preferable to going faster, it can accept small tugs or leg pressure and ignore them.

Without seeing what is going on, it is hard to give good advice. How does your trainer handle it when she refuses to go the right direction for her?
 
#27 ·
makes me think she is being naughty.
Horses have no concept of what your idea of right or wrong is. So, it isn't being naughty. It is just a horse doing what it would like to do in that moment.

Just like every time my horse wants to nose dive for the grass when I lead her somewhere. She knows not to do it with me because she gets a correction the instant her head starts to lower. Now she knows what I expect of her and never tries to eat with me. Get my daughter out leading her and she gets her nose in the grass for as long as she likes because my daughter has neither the strength to correct her (she is 7) nor the desire to. So, if the horse tries it with me, it isn't being naughty. She just wants to follow her desire to eat. One correction and she remembers, "oh yeah. This meanie never lets me eat. Where's the cute little short human?"
 
#40 ·
If you are a beginner and your trainer struggled with her it definitely makes me think she may need someone else to have a few rides on her.

Your trainer can get her working a bit better for you you can get on and feel what it should be like and work through those cues, she will probably go backwards slightly during your ride then your trainer rides her again, you ride and continue this way as needed. I had some clients who I worked like this with and we backed down to me doing one ride a month for 6 months. They've built up their skills and no longe need me to ride at all.
 
#43 ·
If you are a beginner and your trainer struggled with her it definitely makes me think she may need someone else to have a few rides on her.

Your trainer can get her working a bit better for you you can get on and feel what it should be like and work through those cues, she will probably go backwards slightly during your ride then your trainer rides her again, you ride and continue this way as needed. I had some clients who I worked like this with and we backed down to me doing one ride a month for 6 months. They've built up their skills and no longe need me to ride at all.
i work her and get after her and i know what it should feel like

i have had a little bit of success with her, and then when i don't ride her for a while, she reverts --- so i am trying to figure out what is the best way to work her
 
#41 ·
after reading more on this thread, I think the horse is resisting the turns out of willfulness. call it naughty if you like, but she is carrying her thought through into action, and the more she is successful at it, the harder it is to change.

personally, I do not think it's a crime to turn her the way she wants. it's not so much that, for example, you go right and she also wants to go right, it's about HOW she goes right. it has to be YOUR idea, your speed, your arc of a circle to follow. So, go ahead and USE her thought to your benefit. her desire to go that way can actually give you some impetus to bend to your needs.

start the turn in the direction she wants to go, but use your inside leg and try to disallow her to "fall in" onto her inside shoulder and cut the corner, or turn around really tight and short, like a gate swinging fast on its' hinges. the trick is to put bend into her body and make her keep her inside shoulder up, meaning, stay even on her shoulders.

Once you can feel what it feels like to move a hrose's shoulders over, you'll know when you need to do that, when she is falling in. this is almost the OPPOSITE of the "semi-truck " analogy I was talking about.
that is "falling out".

So, for example. she wants to go LEFT. you try to turn right, she powers through her left shoulder because she wants to go left, even though her neck is sharply "broken", like the semi cab off at angle from the trailer. that's "falling out" through the shoulder. you have TOO MUCH bend. you need to not give her so much left rein so that her neck cannot bend so far off to the right and get that "broken" position. use your outside rein to kind of create a "wall" against her neck, and your outside leg , too, and your inside rein to tell her to turn right but not yank her neck way over.

for the other one, the "falling in" , the swinging like a gate one. . . . say she wants to go right, and maybe you start to turn right and she cuts hard and sharp right, the answer is to put MORE bend, using inside leg, more inside rein and maybe move your outside rein off her neck a bit to encourage her to step back onto her outside shoulder. if she moves outward, that's ok. if she disengages, that, too is ok. you get her to stop this idea of powering through the turn, you take back the helm and you can turn, even in the direction she wants to go, but at YOUR direction/speed and quality of movement.

and, when she gives in to this, you give her a bit of rein, give her praise, and let her walk forward a bit .
 
#45 ·
after reading more on this thread, I think the horse is resisting the turns out of willfulness. call it naughty if you like, but she is carrying her thought through into action, and the more she is successful at it, the harder it is to change.

personally, I do not think it's a crime to turn her the way she wants. it's not so much that, for example, you go right and she also wants to go right, it's about HOW she goes right. it has to be YOUR idea, your speed, your arc of a circle to follow. So, go ahead and USE her thought to your benefit. her desire to go that way can actually give you some impetus to bend to your needs.

start the turn in the direction she wants to go, but use your inside leg and try to disallow her to "fall in" onto her inside shoulder and cut the corner, or turn around really tight and short, like a gate swinging fast on its' hinges. the trick is to put bend into her body and make her keep her inside shoulder up, meaning, stay even on her shoulders.

Once you can feel what it feels like to move a hrose's shoulders over, you'll know when you need to do that, when she is falling in. this is almost the OPPOSITE of the "semi-truck " analogy I was talking about.
that is "falling out".

So, for example. she wants to go LEFT. you try to turn right, she powers through her left shoulder because she wants to go left, even though her neck is sharply "broken", like the semi cab off at angle from the trailer. that's "falling out" through the shoulder. you have TOO MUCH bend. you need to not give her so much left rein so that her neck cannot bend so far off to the right and get that "broken" position. use your outside rein to kind of create a "wall" against her neck, and your outside leg , too, and your inside rein to tell her to turn right but not yank her neck way over.

for the other one, the "falling in" , the swinging like a gate one. . . . say she wants to go right, and maybe you start to turn right and she cuts hard and sharp right, the answer is to put MORE bend, using inside leg, more inside rein and maybe move your outside rein off her neck a bit to encourage her to step back onto her outside shoulder. if she moves outward, that's ok. if she disengages, that, too is ok. you get her to stop this idea of powering through the turn, you take back the helm and you can turn, even in the direction she wants to go, but at YOUR direction/speed and quality of movement.

and, when she gives in to this, you give her a bit of rein, give her praise, and let her walk forward a bit .
that is a lot of information to take in at 5am :p

thanks tinyliny -- i will read it a few mroe times today so it sinks in
 
#42 ·
Building on what Tiny said, basically if she wants to go right you MAKE her go right until she wants to go left. If she wants to go left, you MAKE her go left till she wishes she would have went right.

I had this problem with a pony running backwards. The only fix was making him back up so much that he no longer wanted to back up anymore. It turned into my idea instead of his.

Great advice Tiny
 
#44 ·
Building on what Tiny said, basically if she wants to go right you MAKE her go right until she wants to go left. If she wants to go left, you MAKE her go left till she wishes she would have went right.

I had this problem with a pony running backwards. The only fix was making him back up so much that he no longer wanted to back up anymore. It turned into my idea instead of his.

Great advice Tiny
my trainer has suggested taking her where she wants to go and work the dog out of her
 
#49 ·
Here is another tip to think about:

When I was 20, I had a chance to visit a friend on a small ranch. They gave me a horse to ride who could cut cattle on his own & who was excellent with beginners. About a week before I went, an old cowboy told me that if you really had problems turning a horse, to lean back and wallop the outside shoulder with your heel.

Well, my luck being what it was & is, I rode into about 100 acres of pasture with some cattle and the horse bolted. I bent his head around until his nose was nearly touching my left knee, but he was galloping full speed toward a barbed wire fence. Remembering what the cowboy told me, and having few other options except bailing off at high speed, I took hold of the horn, leaned back, and did my best to break his right shoulder with my heel.

After several wacks, the horse started turning left. We did a big, sweeping turn into a left circle, him still with his nose at my knee until he finally decided to slow down. And for the next few weeks, the horse rode fine. I don't know if a bee stung him or what.

So an option might be to take an over/under whip like this:



Or a crop if you ride English, and make it clear that if the horse doesn't turn left when asked for with the leg and reins, then the horse will get whacked on the outside shoulder - hard.

I've been on horses who would not accelerate no matter how hard you kicked, but one whack with a crop would change their attitude and they would go faster at a light squeeze. The principle would be the same - if you refuse to turn when I ask nicely a few times, my asking will stop being nice.

Might be a good idea to have a bucking strap on your saddle if you try it, tho. :wink:

Another possibility: If you are asking for a left turn nicely and not getting it, with the horse's head to the left, try reaching back and kicking the left side to push the rump to the right.

You might also practice disengaging the horse from the ground. I'm not sure how to describe it, but that might help the horse with the idea that when you want movement, she moves.
 
#50 ·
Here is another tip to think about:

When I was 20, I had a chance to visit a friend on a small ranch. They gave me a horse to ride who could cut cattle on his own & who was excellent with beginners. About a week before I went, an old cowboy told me that if you really had problems turning a horse, to lean back and wallop the outside shoulder with your heel.

Well, my luck being what it was & is, I rode into about 100 acres of pasture with some cattle and the horse bolted. I bent his head around until his nose was nearly touching my left knee, but he was galloping full speed toward a barbed wire fence. Remembering what the cowboy told me, and having few other options except bailing off at high speed, I took hold of the horn, leaned back, and did my best to break his right shoulder with my heel.

After several wacks, the horse started turning left. We did a big, sweeping turn into a left circle, him still with his nose at my knee until he finally decided to slow down. And for the next few weeks, the horse rode fine. I don't know if a bee stung him or what.

So an option might be to take an over/under whip like this:



Or a crop if you ride English, and make it clear that if the horse doesn't turn left when asked for with the leg and reins, then the horse will get whacked on the outside shoulder - hard.

I've been on horses who would not accelerate no matter how hard you kicked, but one whack with a crop would change their attitude and they would go faster at a light squeeze. The principle would be the same - if you refuse to turn when I ask nicely a few times, my asking will stop being nice.

Might be a good idea to have a bucking strap on your saddle if you try it, tho. :wink:
thanks bsms -- i like your stories

not sure if i have the balance to lean back and kick her shoulder --- i definitely have the balance to crack her a few times with a riding crop though
 
#51 ·
"i started a little on that this Sunday -- I wanted to go left, she wanted to go left -- I initiated the turn, and wanted a nice soft arcing turn --- she turned hard and sharp -- so I started trying to turn her right to go back to where we were and do it again

I kept her head and neck turned to the right, she powered through it going forward/leftish until we got up to the brush line -- I didn't release, but she slowed down a little, and I finally got her to turn right --- right through the brush

Went back to where we started the turn and did it again
3rd time I finally made it to the point I wanted to make it to and made her do a full circle to the right and then back to the trainer"

How did you initiate this turn?

Did you pull back on the left rein? Did you pull outward to the left with the left rein? Did you take both reins to the left?


Where we you looking? Were you looking where you wanted to be? Were you looking a short distance ahead in the direction you wanted to go? Were you looking at your horse's head? Were you looking at your horse's inside shoulder?

How was your weight distributed?
Did you lean to the left? Was your weight laterally balanced? Was there more weight on your left seat bone? Was there more weight on your right seat bone? Was there more weight on your left stirrup? Was there more weight on your right stirrup? Was your weight centered longitudinally? Was it significantly on your horse's front end? Was it significantly on your horse's rear end?

Where were your legs? What were they doing? Was your inside leg held away from the horse or against the horse to give it something to bend its body around? Was your outside leg away from the horse to help you balance because your upper body was leaning to the inside? Was your outside leg slightly back and against the horse to tell it not to swing its rear out but to bend its body around your inside leg?

The answers to all of these questions are significant. Riders often think they are telling their horse to do something when their bodies are actually telling their horse to do something else. Most riders will react as though their horse knew what they intended it to do. They often end up fighting themselves. Better riders will ask, "What did the horse think I was asking it to do and why?"



 
#54 ·
The answers to all of these questions are significant. Riders often think they are telling their horse to do something when their bodies are actually telling their horse to do something else. Most riders will react as though their horse knew what they intended it to do. They often end up fighting themselves. Better riders will ask, "What did the horse think I was asking it to do and why?"
i have thought and thought on this a lot, I have done the Q&A sessions with members here, and I have worked with my riding instructor on this. I am pretty sure the horse knows what i am asking for and is choosing to be difficult. --- I know saying I do something is not the same as showing I do something -- but i answered your questions as well as i could.

How did you initiate this turn?
-- was trotting, so i look just a little to the left --- lay the right rein on her neck --- and in this case, the left rein remained slack --- she cut hard and fast at that point

Where we you looking?
-- if 0/360 is forward and 270 is left then i am looking at 335

Were you looking where you wanted to be?
-- more or less -- not exactly, but close enough

Were you looking a short distance ahead in the direction you wanted to go?
-- 15-25 yards

Were you looking at your horse's head? Were you looking at your horse's inside shoulder?
-- no

How was your weight distributed?
-- mostly nuetral, with probably a little to the inside

Did you lean to the left?
-- probably a little -- not intentional
** i lean a little to the inside on purpose when applying pressure with my outside leg

Was your weight laterally balanced?
-- as best as i could make it

Was there more weight on your left seat bone? // Was there more weight on your left stirrup?
-- i am sure there was some

Was there more weight on your right seat bone? // Was there more weight on your right stirrup?
-- no

Was your weight centered longitudinally?
-- i had my shoulders over my hips -- was too busy to decide if my hips were over my ankles/feet

Was it significantly on your horse's front end? // Was it significantly on your horse's rear end?
-- significantly -- no (maybe slightly)

Where were your legs? What were they doing?
-- mostly neutral, more pressure in them than riding straight
** when i apply my leg cues, i shift a little more weight onto my inside seat, and inside stirrup (which keeps my inside leg off the horse) and squeeze with my outside leg

Was your inside leg held away from the horse or against the horse to give it something to bend its body around?
-- in this case, i never made it to leg cues

Was your outside leg away from the horse to help you balance because your upper body was leaning to the inside?
-- no

Was your outside leg slightly back and against the horse to tell it not to swing its rear out but to bend its body around your inside leg?
-- i "believe" it was neutral, not forward and not back, but i will have to pay more attention to how i squeeze to make sure


----

my order of cues on a right turn

1. shift gaze right, lay left rein on neck
2. shift seat, more weight to right stirrup
3. squeeze left leg (trainer said i need work on this)
4. pull right rein
 
#53 · (Edited)
If I got on a highly trained dressage or reining horse, I'd probably piss the horse of so thoroughly with unintended & conflicting cues that the horse would either buck or just have an emotional breakdown. My rump doesn't belong on a top end horse.

If Mia feels her rider leaning to the left, she will probably assume her rider is scratching his right rear and will plop his rump back in the saddle momentarily. If she feels more weight on the right stirrup, she'll probably assume the saddle has shifted a little and her rider is getting it straight. Or she'll assume I'm stretching because I've got a kink in my hip.

If I'm in my western saddles, my lower leg will rarely contact the horse, and only if I deliberately do so. Otherwise, the saddle shape limits lower leg contact. In an Australian saddle, Mia is used to lower leg contact, provided it is light. Trooper will get nervous with any lower leg contact.

A lot depends on what the horse has been trained for and is used to. A recreational rider level horse tends to be oblivious to a lot of 'cues' used by top end riders because it knows full well that her rider only uses a handful of cues, and they are obvious ones.

When I look way to my left on Mia, even over my shoulder, it does not mean turn or do anything. It probably means I'm doing this:



My turning in the saddle, including getting off balance, is not a cue. It may mean I'm looking at a sunset, taking a picture of my daughter, scratching my rump, shifting the saddle, etc. Dixie doesn't sound like a horse trained to miniscule cues. And if it only happens when she wants to go somewhere else, then it probably is not a problem rooted in conflicting cues. For that to happen, it would have to pop up all the time.

A rider shouldn't need to constantly work to get a horse to 'stay with him'. Rather than give continuous inputs to keep the horse with me, I'd rather just make it clear that the horse needs to be ready at any time to follow a handful of clear and distinct cues.
 
#56 ·
Dixie doesn't sound like a horse trained to miniscule cues. And if it only happens when she wants to go somewhere else, then it probably is not a problem rooted in conflicting cues. For that to happen, it would have to pop up all the time.

A rider shouldn't need to constantly work to get a horse to 'stay with him'. Rather than give continuous inputs to keep the horse with me, I'd rather just make it clear that the horse needs to be ready at any time to follow a handful of clear and distinct cues.
Dixie is by no means a finished anything
my trainer says that it looked like someone was beginning to teach her to sidepass, but had never finished it

that tells me, i have the standard, forward, backward, left, and right --- and even backward was pretty sad in the beginning
 
#57 ·
When you ask her to trot, say to the right, that now becomes the inside. Do you rise from the saddle when the outside front leg rises. If not you're throwing her off balance. Also the outside rein becomes the supporting rein, ie it controls speed. With your inside hand, partially open and close your fingers in a rhythmic manner so she gets the signal to turn but not a steady pull.
 
#59 ·
Hang in there Jmike! it's undoubtedlly hard to figure out how to make heads or tails of all this advice. it is, however, more along the same lines than it appears to be.

for example, keeping your horse's attention is always important, so that's not a seperate thing.

getting a hrose to move sideways off your leg is valuable.

having the correct body postition and rein aids (so at least you are not interferinfg with her if and when she DOES decide to answer your request to turn correctly)

and keep the shoulder up and a bend in the body.

another thing is to work a bit on this horse's mental "stuckness".
if she is just certain that going to the gate is where it's all gonna be great, let her go there, and once you're there, start circling and working like crazy. then when you are facing away from the gate, offer her the chance to go forward, indeed, ask her to leave the gate in an easy walk or soft trot. when , if, she leaves, let her rest. just let her stand AWAY from the gate.

when you ask her to move, let her choose the direction. she'll choose the gate, go ahead. go to the gate, but when you get close, start circling and working , then off her to move away and go off and rest.

this might change her opinion of how much she wants to go to the gate.

if you stop and chat with your trainer, do it AWAY from the gate. when you end the session, dismoutn AWAY from the gate.

near gate = work
away from gate = rest
 
#73 ·
Hang in there Jmike! it's undoubtedlly hard to figure out how to make heads or tails of all this advice. it is, however, more along the same lines than it appears to be.

for example, keeping your horse's attention is always important, so that's not a seperate thing.

getting a hrose to move sideways off your leg is valuable.

having the correct body postition and rein aids (so at least you are not interferinfg with her if and when she DOES decide to answer your request to turn correctly)

and keep the shoulder up and a bend in the body.

another thing is to work a bit on this horse's mental "stuckness".
if she is just certain that going to the gate is where it's all gonna be great, let her go there, and once you're there, start circling and working like crazy. then when you are facing away from the gate, offer her the chance to go forward, indeed, ask her to leave the gate in an easy walk or soft trot. when , if, she leaves, let her rest. just let her stand AWAY from the gate.

when you ask her to move, let her choose the direction. she'll choose the gate, go ahead. go to the gate, but when you get close, start circling and working , then off her to move away and go off and rest.

this might change her opinion of how much she wants to go to the gate.

if you stop and chat with your trainer, do it AWAY from the gate. when you end the session, dismoutn AWAY from the gate.

near gate = work
away from gate = rest
I think tinyliny gave the answer you are looking for, that's bolded here
 
#60 ·
Hello, jmike.

I have found that, when I am riding in an arena and trying to do precision riding, the horse generally responds to subtle cues. When I am riding the same horse on a trail ride, stand up in my stirrups, and turn to talk with the riders behind me, the horse does not understand this as a cue. Horses are smarter than a lot of people give them credit for being.

I know one very smart horse who has Cushing's disease and little energy. Still, he often responds to very subtle cues. At times he responds well when I am trying to demonstrate a movement. At other times he does not and I accuse him of trying to embarrass me. Is this the real reason, or is he at times feeling better and more responsive than at other times?

Horses can be unpredictable. If we claim to be superior to them, it is up to us to determine why they act the way they do and how to get them to respond the way we want them to. I appreciate the effort you are making in trying to solve this problem. I also appreciate your thinking through the questions I presented and trying to answer them.

If I could watch you ride and try riding the horse in question, I would probably be able to provide better suggestions to resolve your problems. Since that is not feasible, I'll do what I can to help you.

Although it is good to understand general principles when riding, you must realize that the final answer in any situation comes down to "feel". This is a very illusive term and can mean a variety of things. For example, a horse's response to a rider's actions is a result of what it feels. This is body language. Verbal cues are limited in what they can accomplish. At the same time, we must feel what the horse is telling us through its body.

Even among humans using verbal language there is often a failure to communicate effectively. Why should we expect anything different when considering communication between difference species?

The simplest way of achieving a response from a horse is through force. A horse will generally respond to this and learn to do what is expected of him. This, however, assumes that every rider uses the same method to achieve the desired result. If a different rider uses the same method in order to achieve a different result, the horse will generally respond by doing what he was originally conditioned to do rather than what the new rider desires.

If a new rider uses a similar but slightly different method of asking a horse to do something, it is like someone speaking in a different dialect or with a different accent. Some people are better at figuring out these differences than others. So are some horses.

When someone doesn't respond correctly to what we are telling them to do, we may say the same thing in a louder voice. If they have understood us and are simply ignoring us, this may be effective. If they have not understood us, shouting the same thing more loudly will not help. It is best to find another way of asking.

It is the same with horses. We should always be trying to establish a better means of communication.

If I try to ask a horse to turn gradually to the left and he turns sharply to the left, I try to think of everything I did and, then, determine how I might modify what I did to clarify what I wanted.

If I looked twenty feet ahead on the arc I was trying to make, I might try looking ten feet ahead. If I leaned slightly to the inside, I might try not leaning at all. I might even try leaning slightly to the outside. If I had my outside leg in a neutral position, I might bring my outside leg slightly back. I might also apply a little extra pressure with my outside leg in this position. If I had my inside leg slightly away from the horse, I might put it against the horse and even apply a little extra pressure. As a last resort, I might even move my inside leg forward in an effort to block the horse's inside shoulder and try applying various amounts of pressure.

In the same way, I would try modifying everything else. Once you have found a solution, you are not confined to riding this same horse forever using the same method. Communication is fluid. Once it has been established, it can be modified. When learning a foreign language, we may need to see the written word as we hear it spoken. After a while, we will not need this visible assistance. As we become more familiar with the language, we will more readily understand what is said even when spoken with a slightly different accent.

Riding a particular horse is a matter of experimentation, reading the response, and modifying the experiment. Once we think we have found the answer, we may be surprised when our method does not work the same way with the same horse on another day. The horse may be feeling a little different that day. We may be feeling a little different that day. Our response is to start experimenting again.

I realize that I am not furnishing you with specific direction on how to get what you want with this horse, but I hope I am providing you a method to discover the solution yourself.
 
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