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Agressive 4 yr old

4K views 37 replies 20 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
I just started training two four yr old quater crosses this past month. The last few times I worked both of them, they were a little energetic, but otherwise well behaved. Both went around the arena, did several inside turns, and joined up just fine. Neither showed aggresion either, I was very confident in both of them. Yesterday though, when I took the oldest of the two, Luxor, out, he was extremely aggresive. I have never seen a horse act the way he did other than in movies, he wanted to hurt me, really bad. While he was on the lead rope still, he turned to face me and struck, reared and charged me for several minutes. Unfortunately my younger brother was riding my horse who is 33 in the arena with me, so I wasn't able to let him go without putting my brother in danger. I was afraid to punish Luxor in any way as well because it would only drive him towards me and make him more aggresive. If I had been the only one in the arena, I would have just dropped the lead rope and drove him as hard as I could until he was submissive or at least too worn out to do anything, but for my brothers saftey I had to hold on. When my brother finally got out my mom was yelling at me to come out, which meant that I had retreated and he won. I understand she didn't want me to die, which he did charge me several times, twisting his whole body he was bucking so hard, but that means he won. So now, I can't even take him out of his stall without being afraid he'll do something stupid again, so I can't get him safely across the yard to the arena where I will be able to fix the problem. Does anyone have any suggestions?
 
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#3 ·
He needs an attitude adjustment, and it doesn't sound safe for you to do so by yourself. Please get a person experienced in dealing with aggressive horses to help you. An Internet forum is too limited to give you "tips" on such dangerous behavior and you could end up getting seriously injured.
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#5 ·
This is very dangerous and I'd give you advice on what to do but it sounds like you do not have the age and experience to be working with a dangerous horse like this. He could put you in the hospital or kill you. I'd get a professional trainer or sell him.
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#6 ·
I agree with the other posters - this horse is way beyond your capabilities.

You did many things wrong.
First the horse should have been corrected hard the moment he started the antics.
I would rather reprimand a horse I had on a rope than one that was loose in any size arena. A horse that is being 'attacked' from the front (and for safety slightly to the side) and being whacked with the end of the lead rope is not so likely to keep coming at the handler.

Send the horse to someone who knows what they are doing before you get hurt and make the horse worse by not being able to correct him efficiently.
 
#7 ·
He's not aggressive in his stall or pasture and he's very social, he loves to be pet and he's not aggressive towards other horses...the way he behaved the other day caught me way off guard. I know how to fix the problem, that's the easy part. I just need to get him safely from point a to point b without someone getting hurt. I know that sounds kind of confusing...
 
#8 ·
Actually correcting a horse like this must be some a certain way or they never learn its not "easy" like you say for someone with your experience just trust me on this. He's spoiled and dangerous. I don't care how "good" he supposedly is other times.
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#9 ·
I know how to fix the problem, that's the easy part. I just need to get him safely from point a to point b without someone getting hurt. I know that sounds kind of confusing...
no you dont. The problem is that you cant get him from A to B. If he is trying to hurt you on the ground, on a lead rope, he can do much worse, free, with no method of control. I've worked with agressive horses, and you are in way over your head, especially now that he won round one.

please dont under estimate what this animal can do to you. if one kick or strike hits you right, you can be severely injured, disfigured and/or paralyzed.
 
#11 ·
If you can't even get him from point a to point b, then you are in over your head. If you were unable to correct him when he initially blew up on a lead line, you are in over your head (regardless of whether someone else was present). If you are not in control, you are in over your head. I agree with all others have said. Get someone with more experience.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Also if you knew how to fix the problem you wouldn't be asking on the forum, and this horse would of been corrected swiftly and severely for its aggression towards you at the first hint of it. If I could talk to your parents I'd tell them not to let you get anywhere near this horse. For him to be "good" then change to aggression shows lack of training and a horse being spoiled. And now this horse will be even worse the next time it tries to boss you. Something I have a feeling he does all the time anyways even when being "good", but you don't have the know how to recognize it. I'm guessing your a teenager so you have the invincibility and I know it all complex that we all get at that age. But listen to us who have been training for many years and have dealt with several horses. You are in danger of being kicked, bitten, ran over, struck, and stomped all if which will be very painful, could break bones, disfigure you, paralyze you, or kill you. You have two options get a trainer and correct the bad behavior, something if you can should watch how they do it, or sell the horse. Get yourself something broke save your body. There are some injuries that even at a young age can stay with you and hurt all the time. Take it from me who suffers from chronic pain due to injury. Please make the smart and mature decision for your own safety.
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#13 ·
You are now afraid to take the horse out of his stall and lead him across the yard, if you think that horse doesn't know that & isn't going to take full advantage of this, you are kidding yourself. Even if I could give you step by step do it yourself instructions, I would be setting you up to be at the mercy of a large animal that can kill you, sorry I don't want no part of that!
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#14 ·
I think with all due respect that its time to get the help of a more experienced trainer. If you are training the horse and getting paid its time to seek another opinion and speak to the owner. I think on the ground help is needed because even if we wanted to give you advice we don't know what triggered the behavior. Use this a learning opportunity and work with a trainer to learn how to handle this situation. Find a trainer to work with you. Getting from point A to point B is never the easy part, once you get to B you have to go to C.

I think if you are scared of this horse you are putting yourself at greater risk. You are going to be on edge all the time and expecting bad behavior. Self fulfilling expectations. I would say
 
#16 ·
"he's very social, he loves to be pet".....

The above from your second post on this, is the crux of the problem.

You have created a spoiled horse.

Also there is good chance horse is not being aggressive but is just full of himself from being stalled too, and you don't have enough experience to realize that, or deal with it either.

And furthermore, if your brother was riding in the arena? You had no business trying to take an unbroken horse in there period. Doing that is just asking to get someone hurt or killed.

If you don't get some help for your handling of horses as well as how to assess your surroundings you will end up getting hurt badly. Not if, when.

Letting a horse run free when acting up on lead line, is not going to fix anything.

Forget trainer. Sell these, get something already broke, and take lessons on handling horses.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Respect lessons by mares will not transfer over to respect for humans, and may in this instance actually make horse worse.

Anyone that works with horses and herd dynamics, will tell you that when new horses are introduced into herd, it is the ones at bottom two spots that will fight the hardest as they don't want any more bosses. That will translate in turn to a horse like this deciding to keep from having another boss when humans begin to work with it.

For that matter same with any animal/creature.

As for PWL thoughts about harsh judgement. I usually tend to err on side of caution when giving advice, as well as make comments about other's advice, simply because I do know what can happen, if for instance you tell someone to hard tie horse and leave it, never thinking that the person may tie to sapling, rail fence, portable round pen, or even cellar door.

You also have to take in to account the "amount of fight in the dog" as it were. Not dog fighting per se of course, but the attitude that handler has, and how easily they will back down if horse decides to step it up.

Much damage is done when someone "sets a battle" without having the fortitude to carry through to the other side. The slappy slappy that so many resort to with nippy/biting horse for instance. Does nothing to correct or stop, and actually makes horse worse. We see it all the time.

But nothing harsh was said to this poster. Just truths, that hopefully will be taken and used, before they end up in ER, or grave.
 
#19 ·
Like almost everyone else said, --"You are in way over your head!"

If you had any clue how to 'fix' this, he would not have gotten this way in the first place. ANY "NO!", he did not just start his yesterday. Yesterday may have been the first time he actually struck at you or charged, but I guarantee he sent you warning signals and you missed them all.

Some dominant horses only need a handler that they can step toward and make the handler back up a step or two and they think they are 'in charge'. This horse does not need 'join up'; he needs to be seriously taught that he must back up or move away from his handler absolutely every time the handler asks him to.

He must be taught to stay out of your space and respect you 100%.

He doesn't need to be petted or given treats.

He seriously needs an adult that can show him that this is no acceptable behavior.

He obviously is not a show horse, so there is not reason for him to be stalls. Get him out of a stall, into a pasture or big paddock with other geldings (no mares) where he can get all of the exercise he wants and get him off of 'hot feed'.

If your training had been going well before this, you would not have said "The last few times I worked both of them, they were a little energetic,..."

If your training had been going well, he would have been getting more respectful and easier to handle. If you have been just taking him and turning him out and 'thought' you were teaching him anything positive while he was running around the arena, you were mistaken. He would be nicer and not aggressive. I'll guarantee that he gave you warning signals. I guarantee that at some time, you stepped back away form him when you should have stepped forward and made him back up. You may not have 'read' these signs correctly, but he 'read' your weakness and vulnerability and thought 'it was time for him to send you out of his space.'

Get some help before he gets worse and you get hurt. Most spoiled horses I see at the local horse sale with aggression problems came from a situation just like this. They usually end up on the killer truck.
 
#21 ·
I would look around for a more experienced horse person or trainer to help you...that way they can personally see what is going on and show you how to put a quick end to any unwanted behavior. Personally, I rarely ask for training advice on forums such as this - people who don't know you, your horse or your experience are quick to judge and can be pretty harsh.
 
#22 ·
No one has been mean or harsh that I've seen on this thread. They've been just honest with him/her. The truth in this situation is this person is in danger and over their head period, that isn't harsh that's just good advice. When someone is in danger you don't candy coat it and shoot butterflies and rainbows up thier bum. If you think the honest truth is harsh and can't take it then you shouldn't be training horses. I've been told the honest blunt truth and given corrections sure to some it might of sounded harsh but I love constructive critisism it helped me become a better trainer. But I have a feeling though that the OP didn't get what they wanted, "butterflies and rainbows", and so I'm curious to see if the OP will come back, which I hope he/she does, but haven't seen the OP since yesterday. OP please know almost every comment I've seen though blunt is out of genuine concern for your safety.
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#27 ·
^Hmpf! Computer problems again!

It does appear that you've been soundly 'told' & I understand you may be feeling 'set upon' from the responses. It's also possible we have the wrong idea about what's going on, so I agree with Prarie's sentiments about forum advice & such.

So saying, this sounds like very dangerous behaviour & you can't afford to mess about with it. This sort of thing can be deadly dangerous & may not afford any second chances!

It is also very likely that whatever you have been doing has inadvertently taught him to do this. Eg. your 'join up' may have given him the message that he is the dominant party, or that he needs to get in first to stop you hassling him in circles again. Perhaps he was just trying to teach you some 'respect' or 'manners'.

Also agree that Cherie's comment about stalling & feeding is very valid. However, honestly I think this is 'by the by' in this particular case it's time to either sell the horse - to someone that's experienced with respectfully & effectively dealing with this behaviour, or to the meat market - unfortunately it's not fair on him or anyone else to just pass him onto just any 'experienced' home. Or find that very experienced someone to train him for you very well, *before then instructing you.

...Oh & I agree with your first response too Palomine, but I think the 'strong' corrections are best if not physically punishing. A lot of 'aggressive' horses become that way due to heavy handed handling. I recently saw a vid of Klaus Hempfling dealing with aggressive horses & this is the way I tend to handle them - not confrontational, but quietly persistent... tho I tend to start out on the other side of a wall/fence to start a *mutually* respectful relationship with some 'aggressive' horses I've met, rather than online in the open, like Klaus demonstrated!
 
#34 · (Edited)
...Oh & I agree with your first response too Palomine, but I think the 'strong' corrections are best if not physically punishing. A lot of 'aggressive' horses become that way due to heavy handed handling. I recently saw a vid of Klaus Hempfling dealing with aggressive horses & this is the way I tend to handle them - not confrontational, but quietly persistent... tho I tend to start out on the other side of a wall/fence to start a *mutually* respectful relationship with some 'aggressive' horses I've met, rather than online in the open, like Klaus demonstrated!

Out of my own curiosity and learning, what are some methods of non-physical methods of punishing/training a horse who's prone to aggression? Is it still the same pressure+release? How is it different and how does it help a horse become less reactive? What are some skills/steps that could be used that isn't confrontational?
 
#29 ·
Some 40+ years ago where I was working there was a neighbouring family whose daughter, 11 years old, had a pony that was way to much for her. I did help her where I could but it was a difficult situation.
I never really spoke out about this assuming that the parents knew (mother was supposedly very horsey)
A couple of months later the child was killed by the pony.
This has always stayed with me and I would rather be blunt and harsh than to hear of a similar situation.
 
#30 ·
"This has always stayed with me and I would rather be blunt and harsh than to hear of a similar situation."

Agreed!

And, with the limited knowledge anyone has of the situation, and without know the horse personally there's just no real way to give good advice. Some horses need an aggressive approach, some can be made way worse- even 2 horses that appear to being doing the same thing and have the same problem may need 2 completely different approaches and 2 different answers to the problem, and the problem that turned horribly worse by switching them around.

There is never, ever one method, never one fail safe answer to any problem with horses. They are animals, they have a mind of their own. They think differently from each other, and us. And, they are incredibly unpredictable.

I am all good with getting advice from a forum like this if faced with a challenge. Everyone has different ways they would approach things, it's up to the trainer/owner to evaluate those ideas and use what they think would work best, dependent on the horse and situation (as they are the only ones that know the real problem and mindset of the horse)

But, when someone says that fixing the problem is the "easy part" and just leading them is the difficult one, that sends up huge red flags that this person is not ready to handle this. They need to enlist the help of someone with more experience with this, to assist in addressing the root cause and correcting the issue and teach them how to handle the horse at minimum.

May not be what they want to hear, but there's no shame in it. You live, you learn. I don't think anyone is attacking the OP, but from evidence provided, they ARE in over their head and need further assistance from a more experienced person (outside of an online forum). I do believe we all have given the best advice given the situation.
 
#35 ·
I do not know how many people have actually replied to this but, the greater majority agree that Pocket is in way over their head.

It is nigh impossible to judge something on a forum, many with problems just cannot read a horse's language.
Many times I have had to lead an over fresh TB colt from A to B and they have acted like they are totally unhandled! Rearing, waving front legs, coming down to then shove both back legs out, striking out, roaring trying to come across me, you name it and they have tried it.
Many would think that they are being nasty, they are not. They might be behaving dangerously to me and themselves, but it is only the joy of being out of a stable.

Some will need a good wallop, some will need just settling, but you can bet your bottom dollar that because I have the experience and know just how to read each individual horse, they soon stop behaving like idiots.
 
#37 ·
Thank you Loosie! That answered my question exactly :)
I guess I've always heard the two extremes in fixing this sort of behavior - meeting it more aggressively, punishing the negative behavior or going to the opposite extreme of rewarding the positive behavior - but I haven't heard the neutral middle, which is what your explanation sounds like.
Kind of letting the horse come to the conclusion that being bad earns them nothing good (or bad, really).

Thinking on it, I think most horse-people use this 'style' or 'method', just never been explained or taught. It's hard to teach doing 'nothing' :P Even if nothing is everything.
When working with my reactive mare I found just being calm and carrying on what I was asking for each time she 'reacted' helped her realize 'oh that was silly, if you're not scared I must have over reacted'. I guess it's kind of a reach to assume that's what she thought - but it is the results I got, on top of the introduction of positive reinforcement I found our possibilities limitless.

Thanks Loosie, great explanation :)
 
#38 ·
Well yes, I think pure positive reinforcement does work, and reinforcing 'good' behaviour is also vital, but with some horses I've dealt with, using solely positive reinforcement would.... take you a veeerry loooong time! :) I think that depending on the reasons behind the aggression, it would also be conditional.

Forgot to say that it reminds me of a mother ignoring a toddler's 'tantie'(that I absolutely knew was irresponsible motherhood... before I had my own!:-p) when I do this with a grumpy horse!:lol:
 
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