Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG* - Page 11
 
 

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Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG*

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  • Laying a horse down establishing dominance

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    03-19-2013, 08:26 AM
  #101
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostwindAppaloosa    
2. To the person who suggested treating for unwanted behaviors...

This is quite honestly how this horse got in this situation. Stallions are DIFFERENT animals than mares and geldings. They must live in a nothing in life is free environment and you can never let your guard down around them. Many don't mean to be dangerous they are thinking with their "other" brains.. but you getting inbetween them and what they want will get you hurt if you let your guard down.
I think this may have been me, and I believe we miscommunicated.

I meant that in trying to extinguish (get rid of unwanted behaviors), the bad behavior gets worse or stronger before it goes away.

So not fully extinguishing (getting rid of the behavior through punishment/non-reward) DOES actually strengthen bad behavior.

Absolutely necessary to continue to extinguish the behavior until it is fully gone.

And sometimes it takes more than one trial/session to get rid of the behavior.

(I was cheering you on!)
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    03-19-2013, 05:26 PM
  #102
May
Foal
Wow, he does not sound like a pleasure... I agree so much with your thinking of laying him down - AND your thinking of not doing such a thing unless it is necessary.

I don't know if this would work; but I was wondering: the point is to make him accept that we take control of him and the situation, right? How about breaking it down? Let him first stand tied for an hour or two, a few days in a row? Long enough for him to get impatient and angry, and long enough for him to realize that impatience won't help him. Then regular hobbles on the front feet as training for the next few days. Maybe this could help; make him start thinking about letting go of control in a slighter way first; making the lay-down number three. Though you could maybe also tie him and hobble him at the same time as a number three, and then lay-down as four. Just a suggestion, and also curious to hear if you think this might be a way to do it? I've never experienced a horse like that. Good luck!!
     
    03-19-2013, 06:48 PM
  #103
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by May    
Wow, he does not sound like a pleasure... I agree so much with your thinking of laying him down - AND your thinking of not doing such a thing unless it is necessary.

I don't know if this would work; but I was wondering: the point is to make him accept that we take control of him and the situation, right? How about breaking it down? Let him first stand tied for an hour or two, a few days in a row? Long enough for him to get impatient and angry, and long enough for him to realize that impatience won't help him. Then regular hobbles on the front feet as training for the next few days. Maybe this could help; make him start thinking about letting go of control in a slighter way first; making the lay-down number three. Though you could maybe also tie him and hobble him at the same time as a number three, and then lay-down as four. Just a suggestion, and also curious to hear if you think this might be a way to do it? I've never experienced a horse like that. Good luck!!
My personal experience with hobbles is that they are dangerous.. That's why I use this method of laying a horse down. I do it with a long one leg hobble line.. that way if the horse fights me.. and trys to hop etc.. I can let go if need be. I think if I would of hobbled this boy he would've broke his leg trying to get free honestly! LOL

He has done a complete 180 from that one session. He is acting like I would expect a NORMAL horse to act at this point. It took me nearly 3 hours to get him to except the restraint (the one leg hobble) and than I spent another hour trying to get him to give in a lay down which he did not. I did end up giving in and not pushing for the down... but I got the desired change of tude I was looking for.. so.. a win either way
     
    03-19-2013, 06:50 PM
  #104
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by onuilmar    
I think this may have been me, and I believe we miscommunicated.

I meant that in trying to extinguish (get rid of unwanted behaviors), the bad behavior gets worse or stronger before it goes away.

So not fully extinguishing (getting rid of the behavior through punishment/non-reward) DOES actually strengthen bad behavior.

Absolutely necessary to continue to extinguish the behavior until it is fully gone.

And sometimes it takes more than one trial/session to get rid of the behavior.

(I was cheering you on!)

I didn't mean it badly and can't remember if it was you. I read so many replies I couldn't keep track of who said what.

I've never had good luck with treat based training (just personal experience)

I certainly use positive reinforcement when a horse does a job well done through a rub or pat and a soothing voice.. but as far as treats I have always seen them do more bad than good. Some horses they might work for but whenever I have seen them implemented they get horses who wont work unless you reward them.. or even worse.. NIPPERS! LOL. All my horses can have treats but they are put in their food pail and don't come out of my hand.
     
    03-20-2013, 08:39 AM
  #105
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostwindAppaloosa    
I didn't mean it badly and can't remember if it was you. I read so many replies I couldn't keep track of who said what.

I've never had good luck with treat based training (just personal experience)

I certainly use positive reinforcement when a horse does a job well done through a rub or pat and a soothing voice.. but as far as treats I have always seen them do more bad than good. Some horses they might work for but whenever I have seen them implemented they get horses who wont work unless you reward them.. or even worse.. NIPPERS! LOL. All my horses can have treats but they are put in their food pail and don't come out of my hand.
You're doing fine. That's the problem: everyone thinks that all reward/punishment psych means treats and crops. And in experimental setups, food is a very obvious mechanism for getting rats and pigeons to do what we want. But in experimental situations, the researchers wants very clear evidence in support of a theory.

You are using reward/punishment whether you realize it or not. Everytime you get a behavior from the horse you want, you DO reward it. In fact, by definition a reward is anything that increases the likelihood of a behavior and a punishment is anything that reduces its likelihood.

That's why treats and clickers are not necessary. Horse will work for praise and security. And in fact, to get fancy, I believe that social praise may be a primary reinforcer while clicker training relies on a secondary reinforcer. Others may argue with me, but I am just looking at how social horses are.

Establishing dominance involves a punishment cycle. But the word punishment has so many other meanings than the technical one above. That's why the technical literature uses the value neutral language of "negative" and "positive" reinforcement.

A lot of people THINK they understand learning psychology from psych 101, but usually their understanding is quite thin.

You are definitely on the right track.
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    03-20-2013, 10:36 AM
  #106
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostwindAppaloosa    
My personal experience with hobbles is that they are dangerous.. That's why I use this method of laying a horse down. I do it with a long one leg hobble line.. that way if the horse fights me.. and trys to hop etc.. I can let go if need be. I think if I would of hobbled this boy he would've broke his leg trying to get free honestly! LOL
I do agree hobbles can be dangerous if:

1. The person using them is inexperienced

2. They're put on a flighty or resistant horse before the horse is conditioned to accept its feet being taken with a rope

Whether or not you plan to eventually hobble or lay a horse down, I agree with getting horses accustomed to having their legs taken with a rope. Helps the farrier, helps the owner, and keeps the horse from going into panic mode if they ever get hung in wire or get their foot caught in anything

Never seen a hobble-trained horse mutilate its leg fighting to get loose of a fence and have to be put down
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    03-20-2013, 09:38 PM
  #107
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
I do agree hobbles can be dangerous if:

1. The person using them is inexperienced

2. They're put on a flighty or resistant horse before the horse is conditioned to accept its feet being taken with a rope

Whether or not you plan to eventually hobble or lay a horse down, I agree with getting horses accustomed to having their legs taken with a rope. Helps the farrier, helps the owner, and keeps the horse from going into panic mode if they ever get hung in wire or get their foot caught in anything

Never seen a hobble-trained horse mutilate its leg fighting to get loose of a fence and have to be put down

If you had seen this horse during starting getting him used to the rope one leg hobble you would think differently. I've NEVER seen a horse slam its leg so hard trying to get that sucker off.. and all it was was just on him! LOL.


I do have an update though. We did another lesson tonight. I am just SO happy this horse has turned around. He is like a totally different horse from that one session. He is really listening to me now and connecting. Im just so happy I was able to get through to this boy.
     
    03-20-2013, 09:48 PM
  #108
Trained
It's good to hear that things are going well. If that one session taught him that much, he must be one smart horse and you must have touched just the right neurons! :) I trust you will continue to be on guard at all times for any sign of disrespect though. And, it sure would be nice to hear that the owners are willing to geld him and/or sell him to someone more responsible/experienced.

He's a looker!
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    03-20-2013, 09:48 PM
  #109
Trained
Finally just decided to take the path of least resistance. Smart boy. Good trainer.
     
    03-20-2013, 09:53 PM
  #110
Trained
^Perhaps if he's been a pet he'd never encountered any 'resistance' before... yeah, he'd have been a fun character for a farrier!
     

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