Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG* - Page 13

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Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG*

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    03-23-2013, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by cowgirl928    
When she does something I am proud of the pressure is released and she gets a little scratch on the neck
Treats, scratch on a sweet spot... the point is not what positive reinforcement you use(so long as it's actually reinforcing to the animal), but that you use it, IMO
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    03-23-2013, 06:16 AM
Green Broke
Loosie, I'd invite you to come and try riding my boy but you would end up dead!
I'd love to see how you think you'd treat them from onboard!

Horses need to know who the leader is in order to feel safe, once they feel safe they will work with you and let you do anything to them.

My horse is not forced to do anything. He wants to do it because I asked him too.

Treating horses results in bargey ill mannered horses who mug you for sweets.

My ponies get treats only when I want to cuddle with them or when I'm trying to force something horrible tasteing down them.
    03-23-2013, 07:09 AM
Firstly Faye, I respect that you have a different attitude, I'm just giving mine
Originally Posted by faye    
I'd love to see how you think you'd treat them from onboard!
Well, a good scratch on the withers often goes a long way. But if you're talking food treats specifically, of course you can give them while riding too. But depends what you're doing whether you'd want to IMO, and I don't personally use food treats much under saddle.

Horses need to know who the leader is in order to feel safe, once they feel safe they will work with you and let you do anything to them.
Couldn't agree more. It seems a common assumption that if people use food treats they must 'spoil' their horses & not teach them manners, whatever, but while I'm not speaking for everyone of course, I use it, & think most people do, in conjunction with... well, everything else - it's complimentary to, not exclusive to other methods & tools of teaching 'respect', etc.

Treating horses results in bargey ill mannered horses who mug you for sweets.
That may be your experience, but that's like saying using whips will result in a whip shy horse IMO. If you're clear & consistent & teach your horse 'manners', he'll learn them, with or without food treats. If you're not a good trainer & don't teach manners, they won't learn any, or they'll learn bad ones, with or without food.

My ponies get treats only when I want to cuddle with them or when I'm trying to force something horrible tasteing down them.
Mine get treats only when they're showing good manners, regardless what I'm doing/asking of them... and when I'm trying to force something horrible tasting down them!
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    03-23-2013, 08:10 AM
Green Broke
There in lies the diffenece I think Loosie.
I expect good manners from mine, I don't expect to have to reward them for being polite. If they do something exceptional they may get a treat if I have one on me, but just every day basic manners is not a treatable thing, and if they step out of line then the world comes crashing down round thier ears.

Mine are polite and willing with or without a treat. Reeco can be lead around by a 4 yr old child and Jeff is a para horse.

You can't treat Reeco from on his back as the act of leaning over freaks him out. Oh and before you say it no he does not need more "sacking out" he has been "sacked out" for months, he has worn a scarecrow in walk trot and canter, the scarecrow has hung from his side and between his legs, he wil happily wear a tarpaulin or a plastic bag however his past has taught him that a real person moving on his back means either one hell of a beating or a lot of pain from his pelvis.
The first few times he had me off he paniced and went to the corner of the school where he stood, shaking from head to foot and verry very obviously expecting to be beaten within an inch of his life. I have never seen anything quite like it before, i've delt with many abused horses but Reeco was the most terified of the lot. He is now rideable in all walk trot and canter (something some proffessionals said would never happen) however you cannot do your girth up whilst on him as it panics him, you cannot lean over a shoulder as it panics him and you certainly cannot carry a stick!
    03-23-2013, 09:43 AM
I tried real hard to stay out of this conversation, Loosie is doing a wonderful job explaining it all. And clearly this audience isn't welcome to food based rewards. While I try to only offer those sorts of suggestions to people open to new thoughts and ideas and I try not to force it on people who clearly, in their mind have decided food rewards are not right (for whatever reason they've chosen).

But I had to step in here. I don't mind if people have varying opinions - but get your facts straight before you make wide-spread accusations.
Positive reinforcement makes no more pushy horses than negative reinforcement. Used correctly it makes wonderful, kind willing horses, the same as negative reinforcement. Used poorly can result in dangerous situations - also the same results as negative reinforcement used poorly.
The reason many people opt for positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement (or opt to add positive reinforcement onto their existing training using negative reinforcement) is because it gives you more options.
Some horses would need to be truly brutalized to be able to force them to do something soley through negative reinforcement. But with the addition of positive reinforcement the amount of force can be reduced (or even eliminated in willing horses).

The idea that food=pushy horses, I agree with Loosie, is the same as whips=whip shy horses. I would even go on to say that positive reinforcement has proved itself so stronga training tool that horses will grasp concepts and skills faster than a human may have intended.
A horse at a professional jumping stable I work at has trained all the stable hands that when he kicks his wall he wants more hay. One day he probably kicked the wall out of frustration - they fed him to shut him up. Now he's learned that wall-kicking=food reward. No human intended for him to learn that, and being a terrible habit no one likes it, but they did train him to do that.
While on the other hand food rewards can also produce very polite, willing horses when the reward is timed as appropriately as a release of pressure. This is whywe use a clicker or some other bridging agent. I certainly can't feed my horse while I'm teaching her to trot undersaddle. But I can click when she picks up the trot, at the same time as I release the pressure with my legs and when we stop the trot I'll lean forward and give her her treat. She knows click=yes so I don't need to be shoving food in her mouth while she's trotting, I can wait until after because the click clearly marked the action I want to see more of.

There is much more to positive reinforcement and the benefits of using it. But there is already a very well written thread, written by people far more experienced than myself, that explains the psychology behind CT, how and why it works, and how to use it safely and effectively for horses. If you're interested in learning about positive reinforcement please read it - if you are not interested in learning about it, please don't go around telling everyone how terrible it is when you don't actually understand the way it works.

Here's the thread for reference:
Clicker Training: Challenge Accepted

ETA: OP, sounds like your stallion is coming along well, congrats :)
loosie and ecasey like this.
    03-23-2013, 10:35 AM
Green Broke
Oh I understand positive reinforcement perfectly well thanks I use positive reinforcement in combination with negative reinforcement I.e a pat or praise when the pony has done perticularly well.

I do NOT agree with using "treats" or "food" and my opinion clicker training is probably best not aired on a public forum.

ETA perhaps you should read up on negative reinforcement, there is never any need at all to brutalise a horse!
    03-23-2013, 02:18 PM
Subbing. Very interested in this.
We ride horses with spurs, sticks and treats! OMG, how come we are alive? Ok, I am not a trainer... yet.. however I have a few trainers and learn from them.
And for one, all horses get bucket feed rewards AFTER a lesson, no matter how they did, training sessions ended on good note, and through the lesson they get pats or half pats on their neck/withers for exceptional understanding, and their best reward is a few minutes walk with loose reign after good work. Then we pick it up again, preparing the horse for it ofc. And they get treats randomly too - we walk past the box and give it smth, or suddenly bring it a carrot, or give one before cleaning, but they don't look for them - they know they get their dose after work and they wait for it.

However, there is this one horse that gets a treat every time the rider gets on. Ok, not every time anymore, but was for a long time. One person stood at the head. The rider climbs on from a mounting block, and the treat is given when the rider is on. This was to avoid any crazy behaviour, as once the trainer tried to mount him from the ground and was almost killed. Nobody tries that anymore. But now we can get on without a treat - the trainer holds him when throws me on to walk him off, no treat given. And they also mount him, bend his neck and give him a treat from the saddle too, if noone is available to hold him and give the treat. But there been cases were there is not treat and he doesnt do anything.. he has learnt to be nice..
That is just an example of a very special horse, that has unknown past, was very afraid and panicky, but now is a good horse. :) with treats and with whips and spurs and lots of work :P
    03-23-2013, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by GhostwindAppaloosa    
If you had seen this horse during starting getting him used to the rope one leg hobble you would think differently.
Think differently about what? I don't even know what we're disagreeing about. I was agreeing. Do you disagree that he should be started using a foot rope?

As far as the treats, I'm sure the clicker trainers and what-not will have a come-apart but I have to comment on his madness. How many successful professional trainers do you see using treats to get results? And by successful, I mean successful in competition or get paid to ride horses for people who use them successfully in competition. I'm talking about people who make a living training real horses. Not trick horses. The clicker fad is just a trend that appeals to novices. Pressure and release is and always will be the tried-and-true, proven and tested way of horse trainers who actually make a living and turn a profit training horses. Clickers and treats is the way of people who post YouTube videos. I don't take treat training seriously and as far as I'm concerned it's not even a relevant method.
Just my opinion
    03-23-2013, 03:46 PM
Green Broke
    03-23-2013, 03:59 PM

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