Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG* - Page 14
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Horse Training

Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG*

This is a discussion on Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG* within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

    Like Tree270Likes

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        03-23-2013, 04:30 PM
      #131
    Yearling
    I use both clicker training (CT ) and pressure/release (PR) to train my horses. I find both really useful. Mostly I use pressure/release because either the concept is simple and I can release at the instant the horse does the behavior. I especially use pressure/release when the horse is trying to avoid doing something they already know how to do. In that case the pressure is usually moving their feet. I use CT when the behavior is complex or it is not possible to time a release at the instant of the behavior. An example right now is collection. I can click while we ride when I get collection or I get collection for a longer duration.

    I think you can use PR for everything but I think sometimes CT can increase the speed of learning and also deepen a learned response because the horse is doing the behavior at liberty. A horse willingly does something without being pulled or pushed by anything when it is a well trained behavior.

    And there are professional horse trainers who use CT successfully. One example is Shawna Karresh who trains for Beezy Madden. And actually, we ALL use food to train our horses. My horses come when I call and whistle for them because I always do that when I go out to feed them so they connect my calling to feed. Now, if they get loose and run to visit the neighbors (this never happens to anyone else I'm sure!) I just call them and they come running home. CT is just a way to REFINE the learning that takes place. Now I can make a sound ( I make a "clop" sound instead of using a clicker now) at the instant the horse is doing what I want so the horse knows what it was that I reward. PR requires this good timed response like CT, only you release at the instant of the response you want.

    Hope that makes sense. It's hard to respond on a smart phone but that's all that works at my house in the boonies! And I respect other trainers and their methods. We all seek success and if you are successful with your method, you're good!
    Posted via Mobile Device
    PunksTank, Little Jane and ecasey like this.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        03-23-2013, 05:45 PM
      #132
    Foal
    LOL - love how this thread turned into a debate re: clicker training and other methods. Just to add my 2 cents.....i don't believe there is ONE right way to train a horse. Horses have different personalities & different learning curves. What works for one may not work for another. CT has it's place in training, as does PR and many other methods. Generally, I think the saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies - however, there are some horses that require a firmer hand. Some horses do get too amped up in regards to food, and CT is probably not the best option. In many cases, CT is a very good tool to use. There are also some horses so spoiled by people that they require drastic measures (which should only be undertaken by an experienced professional) in order to undo the damage. To sum it up, it all depends on the horse. ;)
    boots likes this.
         
        03-23-2013, 07:28 PM
      #133
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cobra    
    LOL - love how this thread turned into a debate re: clicker training and other methods. Just to add my 2 cents.....i don't believe there is ONE right way to train a horse. Horses have different personalities & different learning curves. What works for one may not work for another. CT has it's place in training, as does PR and many other methods. Generally, I think the saying "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar" applies - however, there are some horses that require a firmer hand. Some horses do get too amped up in regards to food, and CT is probably not the best option. In many cases, CT is a very good tool to use. There are also some horses so spoiled by people that they require drastic measures (which should only be undertaken by an experienced professional) in order to undo the damage. To sum it up, it all depends on the horse. ;)
    Exactly what I was trying to say Cobra, only better. When I was little, like 12 yo, my neighbor Mr Thompson was an old rancher that everyone used to bring their horses to when they had a problem. He told me there were many ways to skin a cat and some horses required a different approach. He was patient and firm. He would put a horse who couldn't be loaded in a trailer into an paddock with a trailer and put its feed and water in the trailer, first at the entrance and each day move it further in. He said never get mad and never be in a hurray and you'll be okay.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    onuilmar likes this.
         
        03-23-2013, 09:19 PM
      #134
    Foal
    By definition positive reinforcement is ANYTHING that increases the likelihood of a behavior.

    And by definition negative reinforcement is ANYTHING that decreases the likelihood of a behavior.

    Also, when rewards (PR) are given, the trainer may not always be aware of WHAT behavior is being reinforced. Hence, nipping with food rewards.

    The difficulty with negative reinforcement is that it is often results in many other unwanted behaviors. (In people those can often be expressed as aggression and hostility.)

    People often are not aware of HOW behavior is being rewarded (in animals or other people). But be aware that ALL behavior is supported by some sort of reward schedule. If one loses one's money in a soda machine, one stops using it. If one loses money at a casino, one puts down more money. Classically different reward schedules.

    Just my two cents.
         
        03-23-2013, 09:24 PM
      #135
    Trained
    Like I've tried to get across, not at all trying to make an argument, just explaining where I think the differences in perception lie. It's an 'each to his own' thing IMO, about food treats, but we're getting hung up on food again, when IMO it's not about treats, it's about understanding & using +R effectively, food or otherwise.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by faye    
    There in lies the diffenece I think Loosie.
    I expect good manners from mine, I don't expect to have to reward them for being polite. If they do something exceptional they may get a treat if I have one on me, but just every day basic manners is not a treatable thing,
    I don't get the 'there in' difference you're assuming above, as I could say the same as you just have. I generally keep food treats for Extra Special stuff & teaching new behaviours.

    Quote:
    Oh I understand positive reinforcement perfectly well thanks I use positive reinforcement in combination with negative reinforcement I.e a pat or praise
    Patting may well be a positive reinforcement for some horses, or it may be associated with negative reinforcement, or even can effectively be a punishment. Praise likewise, can become a *conditioned* reinforcer, but not necessarily a positive one. So I think vital to understand the concepts well... whether or not you use +R.

    Quote:
    How many successful professional trainers do you see using treats to get results? And by successful, I mean successful in competition or get paid to ride horses for people who use them successfully in competition. I'm talking about people who make a living training real horses. Not trick horses. The clicker fad is just a trend that appeals to novices. Pressure and release is and always will be the tried-and-true, proven and tested way of horse trainers
    I do personally know of a number of other professional trainers who use food treats *as one of the many 'tools'*. The only famous one I can think of off the top of my head right now is Klaus Hempfling, if I ignore the many professional 'trick' type trainers I know of.

    I just don't get people's problem with trick training v's basic, 'normal' training though. If anything, I think there are many trainers I know of that don't get how to teach certain tricks, but don't know of any trick trainers that don't also know how to teach the basics very well too. I think many tricks would be impossible/extremely difficult to teach with only -R & punishment.

    I agree with you to a large degree that 'clicker training' - meaning using a clicker or such, by the book type methods - is most valuable IMO to *people* learning how to train. I don't feel the need for 'props' personally, but I do find it helps for people to use a clicker or such when they're learning - seems to help them focussing on particulars & getting their timing right.

    But then again, there has been a lot of study into this method, on all sorts of animals - humans included - and there are some advantages to using these type 'tools' in the way the lessons come across... And many professional trainers & teachers of other animals - particularly non-domestic ones and mentally challenged human students - would disagree thoroughly that it's only for novice trainers to use.

    I also agree thoroughly that 'pressure & release'(negative reinforcement) is/will always be the *major* vital principle/method in horse training. Just that it needn't be the *only* one. As said before, IMO +R is best used as complimentary to general training, not exclusive to it.

    Quote:
    "you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar"
    Ha ha, yes, that's also true!
    PunksTank likes this.
         
        03-23-2013, 10:44 PM
      #136
    Started
    So happy to see all the comments - I completely agree with most things posted up.

    Horses, like all creatures learn more than one way, using a combination of the different ways of learning (+R -R +P -P) is probably the best way to fully teach a horse anything. I always opt to take the path of least resistance first then gradually increasing the 'pressure' as needed. So typically I start with clicker training type skills, when I need to up the anti - if CT isn't cutting it for a specific skill, or I need to back up or more strongly reinforce a skill I'll add pressure/release. It's only rare I need to use +punishment (adding something unwanted as punishment), typically with very new horses who are potentially dangerous - or horses who aren't mine who don't do CT :P. But find occasionally -Punishment (The removal of something good for unwanted behavior) has made drastic differences in some horses I've worked with.
    When doing CT, my mare had a tendency to engulf my whole hand to grab her treat, which made me nervous, so whenever I saw her reach out with her mouth wide to grab the treat she'd loose the treat. It didn't take her more than two lost treats to learn she had to take the treat gently from my palm.
    She's learned to give to regular tack with a mix of pressure/release and CT to back it up, this way, should I die, she will be useful to riders who only know CT.


    Loosie I can't agree with you more about professional trainers.
    While most 'trick' trainers I know are also fluent in training basic (and advanced) riding/working skills, most traditional trainers I know haven't got a clue how to teach something out side of the box.


    I also wanted to add about the 'tools'. I'm SO not the type of person to buy gimmicks. Gimmicks are why I haven't looked twice at most NH trainers, while I'll read their books and learn their skills (just to add to my bag of tricks), I'll not likely be purchasing any of their 'products'.
    In CT, I was very much the same - I made my own 'target' by just using a sparkly rainbow crop we had laying around. Instead of using a clicker I used a smooch noise I made with my mouth - this way I didn't have to carry anything particular around.
    I found two things, using the target saved my butt in a lot of situations (if you read the challenge accepted thread I linked earlier you can see one of those instances) - but I also found myself very dependent on this tool. I don't like to be dependent on anything that isn't part of me or always attached to me. So I've started teaching my horses to target anything I face them toward or point at, just started but it's going well now :)
    As for the clicker, I found I liked making a smooch noise, it was always on me and easy to do. But seeing clickers for $1 at petco I picked one up for the sake of it. I tried using it with one horse and saw a great difference - my timing was much more accurate and they always heard it - they connected the dots of click=yes faster with the clicker than with my smooch noise (even a new horse I just started picked it up much quicker). So I'm making myself a little bracelet so that I can have my clicker on me at all times with no issues. I thought it would be tough to carry and use my hands, but it truly isn't - even teaching my belgian to hold his feet up with CT while I put his thrush medicine (which hurts him quite a bit) I was able to hold up his feet, the medicine, the cotton balls and the hoof pick and still click+treat when needed without much issue (then again I have lots of pockets!!)
    So the tools seem gimmicky and you can do without them, but I found some were easily replaceable and others really are the way they are for a reason.
    loosie likes this.
         
        03-24-2013, 12:14 AM
      #137
    Yearling
    Don't know much about Hempfling. What event(s) does he do? Or does he just help people with bad horses. I've yet to see a clicker or treat-based trainer win a legit competition, unless it was a competition to against other NH trainers with a colt at a join-up contest to see who could get em to foller ya around. And I'm not too sure they could even do that.

    Something just goes off in my head when people classify NH trainers and treat-feeding trainers with real horse trainers. There is a difference. 99% of NH clinicians couldn't win a real competition to save their life, especially in a performance class. But people think they're somehow better....I guess it's because they have that crafty way of bashing traditional horsemen with all their babbling.

    And something also goes off in my head when I hear about horses being trained in a manner in which they don't make mistakes. See that doesn't work. Oh, you can get some desired results. But after a few dozen horses nobody will have to tell you that a horse that hasn't learned boundaries is a dangerous horse.
    waresbear likes this.
         
        03-24-2013, 04:52 AM
      #138
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tiffanyodonnell    
    And actually, we ALL use food to train our horses. My horses come when I call and whistle for them because I always do that when I go out to feed them so they connect my calling to feed. Now, if they get loose and run to visit the neighbors (this never happens to anyone else I'm sure!) I just call them and they come running home.
    Nope, when I call my horses from the field they are coming in to work. Feed will come after work. They still come galloping in.
    Heck, they went out on friday for the first time in 3 weeks (flooding has closed our fields) and 20 mins after putting them out I went to get them, I only had to pic up thier headcollars and they were at the gate.
    loosie likes this.
         
        03-24-2013, 05:40 AM
      #139
    Trained
    Poo, where did that response I just wrote go??

    Anyway the gist was... I'm not big into the competition scene. Have seen a few egs of people using treat training in 'normal' competition, inc I'm pretty sure, Grand Prix level dressage, but you're asking the wrong person if you want names. I suspect however, that most people don't *publicly* use treats, given the common attitude about it, but that's not to say they never use them, or other forms of +R.

    It really makes 'something go off' in my own head AC, when I hear people making such fanatical sounding judgement comments about 'real trainers' v's anything you don't personally believe in. It's just like the 'shoes v's bare' hooha - I'm irritated by both those who preach shoes as the be-all & discount every conceivable 'con', as well as those who preach that all horses should be bare & that conventional shoes are always wrong. How about sticking to just discussing the pros & cons of different approaches *in your opinion & experience*, rather than sounding like a... Horseman.

    I wonder about your big assumption about 'NH' people in the competition world, how much 'can't' compares with 'not interested'. There are a number of top dressage riders & trainers these days I've seen who have 'gone natural'(or perhaps you prefer feral). But perhaps that doesn't count if they started out 'normal'.

    I just don't get what you're on about with your last paragraph AC. Who's horses &/or trainers claim not to make mistakes?? Obviously those trainers aren't human... or perhaps they're telling porkys!
    PunksTank likes this.
         
        03-24-2013, 08:55 PM
      #140
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
    THow many successful professional trainers do you see using treats to get results? And by successful, I mean successful in competition or get paid to ride horses for people who use them successfully in competition. I'm talking about people who make a living training real horses. Not trick horses. The clicker fad is just a trend that appeals to novices.
    I've answered this question several times, a quick google search can show you several lists of professional, competitive riders who use Clicker Training and many more are rising.

    Here's my quote from the last time I answered this:
    A quick google search on professional riders who use clicker training found me this, from a professional clicker trainer:
    "I know Jane Savoie uses clicker training some, and if you have
    Facebook, you can see this photo of Sue Blinks doing target work with
    Flim Flam

    Facebook

    Also, Beezie Madden has used it with her show jumpers.

    Most of these people were introduced to it via Shawna Karrasch, who
    Uses it a bit differently, in some respects than Alex does. Most of
    These upper level riders use it to sort our trouble spots in their
    Training, rather than incorporating it into everything they do. Still
    It lends the technology a bit of credibility.

    As to people claiming it's only parlour tricks..... well, that shows
    They don't understand the concept. Alex has found ways to use it to
    Truly transform horses, and I use it as physiotherapy with some of
    Mine. We can thank Kay Laurence for the concept of Microshaping, which
    Alex took even further, and can benefit many horses.

    Conventional training, and the goals and values that govern it assume
    That the horse MUST be in a bridle to achieve collection, to learn
    Lateral work, etc. Alex has shown us that shaping a horse to balance
    His body is no different than shaping a dolphin to swim through a
    Hoop. It can be done without physical manipulation. When training
    Exclusively with negative reinforcement and punishment, in the form of
    Rein contact, rider weight and rider legs, one doesn't have other
    Tools available to show the horse how he can organize his body.

    Not that my statements will convince the nay-sayers.... Most of us
    Find we are best off making our point by example, rather than arguing
    About it. We simply thank people for informing us we are crazy, then
    Carry on with our craziness, improving our horses and ourselves.
    Eventually, the people notice our horse is actually doing pretty well,
    Or else they have moved on and forgotten about us completely.

    Cheers,
    Cindy M (who worked for six months under the skeptical eye of her
    Husband... then he finally announced that my "problem horse" had
    Become the best one in the barn to handle.)"

    As well as
    "
    There are lots of great people out there who use clicker training. You mentioned Steffan Peters. There is also Beezie Patton-Maddon, Sue Blinks, Jane Savoie. All of these are Olympic Riders. And they are not in the closet about clicker training. Ruth Hogan Paulson has also used clicker training.�


    Two years ago, a student of Jane's came to our farm because she was afraid of her horse. In the course of a weekend, I taught her more about clicker training. She went on to be a super team mate for her horse and was accepted into Steffan Peter's NEDA clinic last year. And I might add they looked "Mav-o-lous"


    So, don't worry about what's being said. Those are the ones who just don't know.�


    Along with the people on this list there are some 2700 on the yahoo group Clickryder. And Equine Clicker Trainer Shawna Karrasch has 4739 friends on facebook.�


    Warmly,
    Dolores"


    That is a list of several professional, successful riders in different sports who use CT.






    One of my favorite competitive riders who uses clicker training is Gergia Bruce, here's a video of her and her horse (both reining and dressage as well as some cute tricks) - using a variety of different tack and lack there of ;) and even working two horses at once!
    loosie likes this.
         

    Quick Reply
    Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
    Message:
    Options

    Register Now

    In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

    Already have a Horse Forum account?
    Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

    New to the Horse Forum?
    Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

    User Name:
    Password
    Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
    Password:
    Confirm Password:
    Email Address
    Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
    Email Address:

    Log-in

    Human Verification

    In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


    Old Thread Warning
    This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

    Thread Tools

    Similar Threads
    Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
    Sheplers Customer Service *Long, long, super long rant!* HollyLolly Horse Talk 18 02-18-2013 05:04 PM
    How long will it take for him to lose his stallion-behavior? Britt Horse Breeding 13 06-10-2012 11:43 PM
    How Long Does It Take For A Gelded Stallion to Act Like a Gelding? Ali M Horse Breeding 14 10-25-2011 09:35 PM
    NO REASONABLE OFFER WILL BE REFUSED. FS: Gently used clothes, horse items, barn/home. Seattle Tack and Equipment Classifieds 11 10-20-2009 09:02 AM
    agressive mare...please help!-long- Go The Distance Horse Training 20 09-11-2009 11:33 PM



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:32 PM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0