Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG* - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 153 Old 03-11-2013, 11:46 PM
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Your going to have your ups and downs.
I wonder if this horse has ever been taught manners by other horses?? Has he been on his own?
remember fight or flight. Stay safe. best of luck!
you should make some progression vids for yourself.
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post #42 of 153 Old 03-11-2013, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Spotted View Post
Your going to have your ups and downs.
I wonder if this horse has ever been taught manners by other horses?? Has he been on his own?
remember fight or flight. Stay safe. best of luck!
you should make some progression vids for yourself.
Good point Spotted.......sometimes the herd is the best teacher of manners.....unfortunately though because he is a stud he probably hasn't been turned out with a herd.
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post #43 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 12:11 AM
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Oh dear. Didn't see this thread earlier & haven't read replies yet. Just came from one of the other 'aggressive horse' threads & read your post...

I have to say, IMO you have gone about it in a manner I disagree with strongly on a number of levels, starting with the attitude that he's an A$$hole - don't blame him for the way he's been taught & handled.

The horse may be a 'problem child' on many issues & desperately need some discipline in his life, but I think it's best - and more effective - to do it in an empathetic way, rather than just try to match his 'fight'. Not just because when you do that & lose as you did, you've further reinforced his attitude & therefore dangerous behaviour.
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post #44 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 02:04 AM
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Get him gelded. Is it worth your life to work with him? Is it worth someone else's life when/if his owners sell him to some poor unsuspecting person?

Tell the owner to come get him or geld him! For the time and effort you put into training him you could train 2 other horses. If you get injured you will loose any income you have while you recover. It doesn't make sense professionally to take on a horse like that, unless you have something you are trying to prove. One broken arm is worth how much these days? Even with insurance?

If you work this horse for 3 hours straight, exactly what do you want him to learn? Horses are like children, they do not have the best attention span. By the time you work him that hard he probably has no idea what you want- even just standing there (refusing to lie down) may be his way of giving up. It is not like he understands that the reason you are pulling on him is for him to lay down. If someone picked up your foot and pulled on your hair, the last thing you are going to think of doing is laying down! He probably has no idea what you want him to do.

Working him that hard is going to get him really fit.

I would not want to put a horse like this in a stall. If you go to catch him there is not much room if he decides to attack you or pin you on the wall. I would keep a horse like that in a round pen or small paddock. Just keep working on those ground manners every single day- get him ground driving really well off of voice commands.

I would be teaching this horse to ground drive right into his stall. That way he can't be biting/striking or rearing at you if you are behind him (just stay well out of the way of getting kicked.) If he refuses to get into the stall work him in circles. Pretty soon that stall is going to be a mighty nice place to stand still in.

If he was so tired his legs were shaking, he certainly did not win either. Anytime a horse runs from you, he is allowing you to be "boss". If he thinks you are a predator than laying down means he is going to die. If you can control him without laying him down, than you have still won. Even just taking away his ability to run (with his leg tied up) takes away his control. It is not always necessary to lay a horse down to control them.

Are you familiar with Learned helplessness?

In the learned helplessness experiment an animal is repeatedly hurt by an adverse stimulus which it cannot escape. (You ran him and he could not escape). Eventually the animal will stop trying to avoid the pain and behave as if it is utterly helpless to change the situation. Finally, when opportunities to escape are presented, this learned helplessness prevents any action. (His refusal to lay down). The only coping mechanism the animal uses is to be stoical and put up with the discomfort, not expending energy getting worked up about the adverse stimulus.

A horse often learns to lay down to avoid the unpleasant stimulus of being pulled on. If he is mentally and physically overwhelmed he is not going to be thinking "maybe I should lie down", he will be thinking "I don't know what this person wants so I'm not going to do anything at all". You have to remember that he does not understand that all he has to do is lay down to get you to stop! He probably very desperately wants you to leave him alone and stop bothering him. He just doesn't know what you want.

If you are going to lay down a horse it needs to be done quickly without becoming a drawn out fight. If the horse is down he is immediately released from the negative stimulus and rubbed on and rewarded by stopping the training session.
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post #45 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 03:22 AM
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I'll just remind you the same way I remind my husband.

In some situations, being persistent and just calmly continuing to come back until you wear the horse down is the best thing, especially for a horse that isn't a fighter.

In some situations you get a tiny little bit of give today and quit on a good note and come back either later in the day or tomorrow and try for the little bit you got today and then just a tiny bit more.

You got a tiny bit of give today and you quit on a good note, that's been the most effective thing for me with a fighter. I've found that they fight and fight and fight and sometimes they start fighting a little less each day and then 3 or 4 days down the road the come back and fight with a vengeance. It seems like when they do that, all of a sudden you get a huge break through and make big strides in one day. Sometimes that's the end of the fight and sometimes you have to go through it periodically.

While laying him down and getting him to acknowledge you're on top may be your ultimate goal for now, I wouldn't even try to put him down yet. I'd work with a little trust gaining first. It might mean you have to hobble and rock for 3 hrs a day for several days, but he'll figure out you aren't really trying to hurt him and then you'll get a bit of break through. I'd make my goals much smaller and break your sessions down into smaller steps per session. Keep it fairly simple and then give him a break, even if it's just tied to a patience pole, let him eat some grass and have a drink and then come back for another session when he's fully let down from "round 1". You might do several small sessions in a day for a few days and see if that works better than one really long one.

When you say he's totally sweated, you're telling me he's totally afraid and emotional, I've found that unless I can work past that first, I won't make any training progress.

We have one right now, he's ours not an outside horse, and he's a super emotional and very chicken horse. Of course, he's the one who has a hock injury and needs doctoring every day. Naturally. Well, it's been 3 weeks now and he's no longer trying to kill us, maiming will do. We needed to trim a little of his hoof because it's gotten too long, so hubby got it trimmed and then went for another foot and did it. The horse didn't have to be tranq'd for it, so I consider that a success. He tried to go for the front feet and I stopped him and told him to accept what we'd just been given. This horse would just as soon have taken his head off 3 weeks ago, rather than let him touch his back feet. He now lets us doctor his wound and then allowed 2 feet to be trimmed. That's pretty good progress for this horse.

However, if we changed just ONE thing, he would have a complete melt down. For instance, we can hose his injury outside in the wash rack without too much fuss now, but try to scrub the wound or remove proud flesh there and it's all over but the kicking and shouting. So, we hose, then we go back to his stall. I hold his head, hubby scrubs and does the doctoring and then I give him a hand full of grain and tell him he's good. In the stall he goes to his "happy corner" and leans against the wall while hubby does his thing, doesn't even try to dance away anymore. If hubby was to hold his head and I tried to doctor, it would be back to square one. In this fella's case, he was a dummy foal and I'm not sure how much progress he's ever going to make. He may end up a pasture ornament for life.

We no longer take in outside horses and if I have one of my own that's truly aggressive and I don't feel good working with him, it's off to the vet for a one way ride. I would not accept this stallion on my property, period. Not even as a gelding, I just wouldn't do it.

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post #46 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians View Post
I'll just remind you the same way I remind my husband.
But it's not spelled that way!
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post #47 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 05:19 AM
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Really interesting read, I hope everything works out for you. Will be subbing.

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post #48 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by TheAQHAGirl View Post
Show them this video and explain that if he was 'stud worthy' he wouldn't be in this position.

I'd like to see how this ends up...Keep us up to date! (:

Holy jaysus!!

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post #49 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 08:19 AM
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Subbing mostly.

My only idea would be to not put your blinders on and fixate on one action (laying him down).

I have nothing against it (done right), but as some others have noted, he may have been "giving" a bit even without laying down. I doubt his owners have hardly ever handled him to the extent that you have, so he is probably overwhelmed with all this new sensory input (hobbles, leg ties, getting completely worn out, etc)

Not to say he's not acting like an ass (ass is legal on a horse forum, right ? Ya, know, donkey XD) in general, but I doubt these people ever tried to teach anything about manners, or anything else so I would personally slow down just a tad and work on manners and accepting all these "things" (to him, they are just things- like hobbles and ropes and such) to where he's not flipping out with them, then he'd be more willing to look for the answer (laying down).

Again, I don't mean be his best friend. I would never give a horse like this treats, or frankly, let their teeth that close to any piece of me. Respect first, love later. I could be wrong, but it sounds like you did this all on day 1? That's quite a lot. To me, it sounds like he was "giving" but just had absolutely no idea what to do.

I also agree about the stall thing- although, I think it's good you got him in and out no issue, regardless of what his issue with it was, the point is that you are the boss and you decide where his feet go. But, I would probably keep him in a round pen so he can't corner you and you have an out if absolutely necessary.

I also think there is some merit in giving them an ultimatum about gelding him or sending him back. It's one thing to take on an aggressive horse for training, it's another completely to take on an aggressive horse that has one very "fixable" problem that can be taken care of immediately.

But, I am interested in how this goes and what you do to help this situation, as well as what others have to offer.

Good luck!
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post #50 of 153 Old 03-12-2013, 10:04 AM
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While gelding him is the best idea and should definitely be done, he should also get to where he is "safe" around people before getting gelded. The vet and his staff won't want to deal with such an aggressive and unpredictable horse. The horse could get majorly stressed out during the process and become even more reclusive towards humans, and he needs to be exercised and handled daily to reduce swelling and ensure he's healing properly. If I were in your situation, which thank goodness I'm not, I would get him to a "safe" point before approaching the owners about gelding him. That's just me though, so take that with a grain of salt haha.
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