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any advice

2K views 20 replies 10 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
so when i go to try and get on muss he either begins to walk off or he turns his neck around and tries to nip me on the bum. I'm sick of how he treats me and ive been thinking about how tough i used to be with other horses so im gonna try and get his respect back. I've had enough of him walking all over me. Got any tips, shoot em, would love em. I'm considering getting a crop and flickin him if he turns around. hopefully my trainer will come out when it dries up and he has time.
Also when i have feed to give muss i always have to have a halter on him but it doesnt work when my mum drops feed off by herself so i want to get him respectful around feed. He is improving under halter but now i think its time to be able to take feed into his paddock to the water trough to wet down without having to have him tied up. I was told i should take my lunge whip out there and if he comes into my space give him a flick on the bum with it.
Until he sells i gotta keep him in work and im sick of his BS, no longer gonna be the girl who hopes he'll cut it out. When I get my voice back i'll be using it too.
So any tips, advice please tell me. His ground manners are pretty good these days since the trainer so he knows em, its just me and my mum.
 
#2 ·
It sounds like using the method of softening and bending his neck before you get on and then holding it there would work fro him. This way he can't bite you and if he walks off while you are mounting he has no choice but to go in circles. Lots of circles! He will learn that it is easier to stand still.

(I am making the assumption that there is nothing physical wrong with him)

Also, you need to ask your trainer to allow you to do some of the work. Kind of like with dogs, if you can't follow through then having a well trained animal trained by someone else isn't going to help you if you aren't trained as well. :)
 
#3 ·
It sounds like using the method of softening and bending his neck before you get on and then holding it there would work fro him. This way he can't bite you and if he walks off while you are mounting he has no choice but to go in circles. Lots of circles! He will learn that it is easier to stand still.

(I am making the assumption that there is nothing physical wrong with him)

What is the method of softening and bending his neck? what bringing his neck around? wouldnt he still try and bite my bum? and had a chiro check him month or two ago he was out but good now, mouth down a few months back, feet due but not a concern.
 
#4 ·
My horse always use to walk away and how i handled it was that I first would try to get on and if he moved away from the mounting block and either push him up to the mounting block or walk him right up to it again.

If he walks away when you get on him then keep contact in your reins and when he walks off make him stop get off him and mount again until he relaxes and lets you get on with no fuss.

As for the bitting keep contact on the other side of which he's bitting, for example if he bites you as you mount from the left then keep contact in your right rein.

hope this helped
 
#5 ·
I love the method of softening and bending his neck. I've never had it not work on a horse. This vid shows you how to do it if you're confused. uflrh9y, let me know if this is the exercise you meant.



Nightstorm's method sounds awesome too. I've never tried it and it sounds like it takes a lot of patience, but you have to apply the basic pressure and release ideas of horse training, which are really important, so it might be good practice.

Feeding's an awesome time to re-assert your dominance. Just make sure you back off when he starts to do the right thing:)
And about trying to bite your bum...I don't know if this exercise will prevent it, but if he does that maybe he bites in other situations too and you can correct them on the ground by asking him to back up or round penning him right after it happens.
Hope this helps!
 
#6 ·
Before you 'get tough' & treat it as a training problem, consider it may well be pain/discomfort. Rule out or treat problems such as saddle fit, back, neck, teeth problems. Girth too tight? If you mount from the ground, start using a mounting block. If you mount always on the left, start being more even. Consider how you get on - do you drag on him, plonk yourself? Do you put too much pressure on the reins? ...

Next, if you're absolutely positive it's not pain/discomfort, consider *why* he doesn't like you mounting & work on changing that. Eg. pehaps he's sick of how you treat him & your walking all over him and he's trying to get some respect from you. Quite frankly, it sounds to me like your attitude about him is quite negative, which is likely at least a fair contributor to his attitude about you.
 
#8 ·
Before you 'get tough' & treat it as a training problem, consider it may well be pain/discomfort. Rule out or treat problems such as saddle fit, back, neck, teeth problems. Girth too tight? If you mount from the ground, start using a mounting block. If you mount always on the left, start being more even. Consider how you get on - do you drag on him, plonk yourself? Do you put too much pressure on the reins? ...

Next, if you're absolutely positive it's not pain/discomfort, consider *why* he doesn't like you mounting & work on changing that. Eg. pehaps he's sick of how you treat him & your walking all over him and he's trying to get some respect from you. Quite frankly, it sounds to me like your attitude about him is quite negative, which is likely at least a fair contributor to his attitude about you.

My attitude is not negative I know hes testing me as he always does and this thread is about gaining back respect and not treating him like a little puppy that injures himself all the time. He does the same thing as in that video the girl put off, he just walks away and i have to have someone hold him. Depends where i am i'll use the mounting block if its there but i was taught that its better to learn to get in the saddle from the ground, especially if u fall off out in the bush and theres no stools out there what are you going to do.
He's not sick of the way i treat him, he KNOWS he can get away with stuff which is why i made this thread.
I'm not abusing my horse I'm trying to keep myself safe while handling him so i dont know what your post about my poor horse getting no respect from me is about. Muss is the most spoilt horse in this town, he gets food everyday even though he doesnt need it sometimes twice, he always has his rug on depending on the weather which rug, hes ripped up countless rugs yet we still buy them, he has a nice big paddock to himself at the moment, he gets pats from everyone, brushed and attention from me, i rub his itchy spots for him. Does that sound like I'm mean?


skye- he stands quitely for his girth. he tried to bite me when i did up his girth a month or two ago so we got a chiro out.
And nah he didnt do this to the trainer which means hes just pulling it on me though he did walk off with the trainer when he got in the saddle, but he did not try and nip.
 
#7 ·
Loosie he's been at the trainers and I'm guessing he didn't try and bite the trainer's bottom when he mounted up.. so I'm thinking it's more of a testing thing.

But regardless, always rule out pain first. Does he try to bite you when you girth him up OP?

Otherwise everytime he tries to bite you, you need to lunge him on the spot. Now you said you don't do ground work so make him circle around the mounting block while you stand just infront of it.

Then try again. If he does it again, make him back up a good 10 steps with energy. Then try again.

If he does it again, make him trot around that block.

Keep mixing up the "corrections" so he doesn't get into a habit of anticipating your correction.

Another good one is to inhand trot him around the arena. Sky used to get SO confused when I did that. The idea is he wants to go, welll then we're going and we're in hand trotting in all sorts of crazy directions (as in I hold into the reins and get him to trot with me, without running me over) And then we stop and I back him up a few steps with control. Then we both walk calmly back to the block.

For him that works because he NEVER expected that.

Just be careful..

Make sure the girth is nice and secure before you mount up.

Best of luck.
 
#9 ·
Okay Tayz, so what are you going to do next time he tries it?

#1 rule is not to show emotion, just increase your energy (like go from neutral or "dull" to buzzing of energy)

But seriously, what are you going to do? What steps will you take to correct him?
 
#10 ·
when he nips have him yield away from you by either backing up or shifting his forehand away from you. how you go about that though is up to you.
when you mount make sure that the first thing you do after you get on is stand still for a while.

also remember that he's not doing this just to spite you, he's doing it because that's just what he knows. it's just a matter of changing habits.
 
#11 ·
Teach him basic manners and respect.

Teach him what "Whoa!" means and make it mean "Whoa!"

Keep a stiff rope-halter and lead on under his bridle. [You do not want to jerk his mouth.]

Then, jerk the snot out of him every time he moves after you say "Whoa!" Walk all around him on an ever lengthening lead-rope. Brush him, saddle him, brush out his tail, move all around him and he should not move a single foot. Any time he does, jerk the snot out of him, say "Whoa!" and back him up to the spot you started working on him at.

By the time you have done this for 2 or 3 sessions (without mounting him), you should be able to stand him anywhere, say a firm "Whoa!" and step up in the saddle. If he moves, jerk the snot out of him and try again.

"Whoa!" should mean "Whoa!" and it should make no difference if you are grooming, saddling or mounting. If you become 100% consistent and you allow no crap, he will quit feeding it to you.

Remember --- The worst behavior you allow is the very best behavior you have any right to expect.
Cherie
 
#12 ·
Thankyou Cherie I'm defiently going to give that a go with him. That makes tonnes of sense. Ive been told rope halters are more effective to do ground training in but i have him in a normal halter u buy from the store, does anyone have an opinion on that?
 
#14 ·
thats what i'm trying to do, get him to stand still when i mount, no turning around and trying to bite me and then walking off when i put my foot up towards the stirrup
 
#16 ·
As far as teaching him to stand on cue, yes, if you haven't done that, so he knows he's meant to do it. I agree *basically* with Cherie, except for the... snot. I like to *teach* first at least, not resort to heavy handed punishment until basic lessons have been taught at least & unless needed. Also don't forget to reinforce what you do get.
 
#17 ·
How does your tack fit? How are you mounting?

My gelding didn't like to stand still for his former lessee, and she would often complain in texts about it, I would saddle him out and go to the arena and didn't have a problem, so I started to watch how she mounted him (the tack was professionally fit, so that was no issue).

While she was using a mounting block, she would put her foot in, swing so her toe poked him in the ribcage, swing up by grabbing the front of the saddle and banging her butt down in the saddle. She was all of 90 lbs and could not understand why this made him move off or root at the reins and move his hip away from her.

I showed her a more tactful way to mount him (and I am 250+ now, WAS 275 at that time!) and he stood like a gentleman. I am always careful to use a mounting block, I take up the reins (but not too tight) in my left hand, with a big chunk of mane about halfway up his neck, make sure my left toe is pointing towards his ears when I put my foot in the stirrup, and step up lightly (think of pointing your helmet to something standing next to his right shoulder) and then easing myself into the saddle. I would then praise him (every time, even though he's 9!) put my right toe in the stirrup, hang out for a few seconds, and THEN he can move off for a walk warmup.

My boy injured his withers on frozen ground about 5 years ago, and I always check his withers, back, croup and neck for injuries before I tack up. (this is good practice for ANY horse, really, but especially him because he got it from rolling on frozen ground and getting cast, he is somewhat good at getting himself in precarious positions!). I only put the girth on him snug, not tightened all the way when I first saddle him, I then bridle him and we walk to either the arena, or wherever we're riding, then I tighten the girth the rest of the way, and stretch his front legs gently as his skin under his elbows likes to get bunched up under the girth, plus a gentle stretch is good for everyone :)

My mare was a challenge to teach to stand when mounted, as once her tack is on, she is ready to GO, like now. Using the same methods above and being consistent, she can be excited and prancing and jigging, but as soon as I put her by a mounting block (or wheel well, or picnic table, or mounting rock, etc) and say "stand" she will stand stock still to mount, until I do all the above and then tell her to move off, THEN she will go back to jigging if that's what she was doing, until I get her relaxed. She is funny that way! But have found for horses like her they are better/easier to control to warmup under saddle rather than on a longe line like many seem to prefer. Circles seem to hype her up, not calm her down.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Neurotic- Ive been told the saddle fits well buy the people from saddleworld who came and fit it to him but im going to go back to wintec saddle now for a while. I'm not sure what hes been taught and what he hasnt which is the hard part. but yeh hes been at the trainers and just got back with alot of training done like his ground manners are much better especially for being tied up.

I rather not mount with a mounting block but do it alot anyway lol! i hold my weight in the stirrup before sititing into the saddle. Used to ride a qh that had a bad back so was soo careful when getting on him, poor boy
 
#20 ·
As far as teaching him to stand on cue, yes, if you haven't done that, so he knows he's meant to do it. I agree *basically* with Cherie, except for the... snot. I like to *teach* first at least, not resort to heavy handed punishment until basic lessons have been taught at least & unless needed. Also don't forget to reinforce what you do get.
I'm sorry, but I do not call a 100 - 150 # person jerking a lead-rope hard when a 16.2 hand TB is on the other end of it 'heavy handed punishment'. If you have a rope halter on one and you don't have a chain shank or jerk the bridle reins, you are not going to 'hurt' him. If it is not 'unpleasant' to him, it is going to be completely ineffective. You cannot get anything accomplished with a little 'peck' on the rope other than to further infuriate, or at the very least, embolden a disrespectful horse.

Negative reinforcement needs to come swiftly and effectively. It is NOT a 'teaching moment' (in the sense of teaching something new to a green horse) but a 'correcting' moment. If you do it right, you only have to do it once or twice. The very first time a horse tries to bite me, he will think he is lucky to be alive. He is not going to do it again -- or least none of the ones I have handled have. The sooner they learn proper respect, the happier they are and the happier I am.

'Pecking' at horses has a very detrimental effect on training and respect. If you are going to reprimand a horse, do it tough enough that the horse does not come back looking for a bigger fight. One time will work when you learn how to 'jerk the snot' out of one where you can 'peck' on one a hundred times with him getting tougher every time.

He turned swung his behind around at me this afternoon and threw his head and both me and my mum though he was gonna kick us. If I'd had my dressage lunge whip with me i would have gone and got it and given him a flick on the bum for it. hes 16.1hh 6 year old thoroughbred.
Im trying to earn his respect, no im not trying to force him but im trying a different approach since last one hasnt works.
You don't need a whip. I NEVER carry one because I don't need one -- even with a new disrespectful horse.

What DID you do when this horse turned his butt to you? I hope you did 'something'. Remember, "The worst behavior you accept is the very best you have a right to expect". In this case, if you did not jerk him hard when he did this, then this behavior is exactly what you are training him to do. It makes no matter if you liked it or not. If you did not make him pay a high price for his disrespect toward the both of you, you trained him to do just what he did.

Training horses is about 90% mental and about 10% actual training ability. 'What you decide' to do and 'when you decide' to do it determines if you can effectively train a horse. It is all timing and feel and what your mind tells you to do.
 
#21 ·
I'm sorry, but I do not call a 100 - 150 # person jerking a lead-rope hard when a 16.2 hand TB is on the other end of it 'heavy handed punishment'....cannot get anything accomplished with a little 'peck' on the rope other than to further infuriate, or at the very least, embolden a disrespectful horse.
Well I'm not sorry, but I disagree with you.:wink: Your way is most certainly not the only way to teach a horse effectively. Of course you can hurt a horse with a 'good' jerk on their sensitive nose, but that's not the point. My point is that it is not necessary - & IMO not desireable - to use punishment, especially at that level, to train *generally*. Not saying never either BTW - it does depend I reckon, on the stage of training, attitude of the horse, etc, as to whether I'd use punishment, as you describe or otherwise too.

Negative reinforcement needs to come swiftly and effectively. It is NOT a 'teaching moment' (in the sense of teaching something new to a green horse) but a 'correcting' moment.
What you described is not negative reinforcement but positive punishment actually. Of course it's a 'teaching moment', regardless of how/when you do it. What's the point otherwise?? And my point was about teaching with less confrontational methods, before attempting 'correcting'.

'Pecking' at horses has a very detrimental effect on training and respect. If you are going to reprimand a horse, do it tough enough that the horse does not come back looking for a bigger fight.
Not necessarily & the alternative to 'pecking', as you describe(bashing?) can also be very detrimental to training & 'respect'. That's one of the things about punishment - it is confrontational & has 'side effects'. It's also not the most effective 'teaching tool', because animals(horse, human, otherwise) aren't just empty input/output boxes but there is always other 'baggage' to effect attitudes. That's why I prefer to use other methods & use punishment judiciously, rather than as a matter of first course in training.

I do agree that when using punishment, especially if it's a safety/dangerous type situation, you need to use as much force as necessary *to be effective* and this may well be vastly more than 'a peck'. I'm not personally adverse to using as much force as to hurt a horse seriously if necessary, just that I don't find it's *generally* necessary to take it past mild discomfort.

One time will work when you learn how to 'jerk the snot' out of one where you can 'peck' on one a hundred times with him getting tougher every time.
Depends on the motivation for the behaviour in the first place & whether you use solely - or lots of - punishment or you also use mostly more effective methods. The nature of punishment/reinforcement of any kind is that it weakens or strengthens a behaviour. It doesn't generally extinguish or make a behaviour 'known' in one fell swoop.

Remember, "The worst behavior you accept is the very best you have a right to expect". In this case, if you did not jerk him hard when he did this, then this behavior is exactly what you are training him to do.
Except for you seeming to be saying that punishment is the only way to teach, I agree with the above. So many(vast majority?) of 'bad' behaviour is because people have inadvertently reinforced it/trained the horse to do it. While 'Parelli-isms' tend to grate on me, there are some that have stuck. One of them is 'horses are like computers - they often don't do what you want them to do, but they always do what you program them to do'.
 
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