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Is anyone opposed to Join Up?

This is a discussion on Is anyone opposed to Join Up? within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        03-26-2010, 11:07 AM
      #11
    Foal
    Riosdad, I agree with you there are some really snotty mare's,there are some really bad people.That is why I said a balanced leader.The kind of leader that is just.Just like in our world they are at a premium.
         
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        03-26-2010, 11:49 AM
      #12
    Foal
    I have sued join-up myself. You just need to keep in mind, as other have said, that it's not a 'magic wand' you can wave and instantly have a perfect horse. However, used properly and in combination with general good horemanship techniques, join-up can be a useful tool.
         
        03-26-2010, 05:31 PM
      #13
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiosDad    
    Why are horses so perfect?? The lead mare might just be a bitch like anyone else and take a disliking to another horse and drive it away just because she feels like it. Horses have personalities too, life isn't fair.
    She is not perfect either.
    Not sure I quite get the point of the above, but it comes across to me as saying 'horses aren't perfect, can be 'bitchy' & 'unfair' so that's fine to be like that' or perhaps 'horses are bitchy so you shouldn't bother trying to use their behaviour'(??)

    If you're going to try to emulate horse behaviour I think it's important to study & pick *good* leadership behaviour. There are leaders & there are leaders. I tend to use a more 'passive leadership' style(Mark Rashid has a good description), rather than the dominant, bully style(tho I'm not adverse to it's use in some situations). Also even respected, *respectable* leaders(whatever species) have bad days/moods, & just because they're a good leader doesn't mean to say you should just emulate them. I also know 1000% that I'm far from perfect, but that doesn't mean I don't think it's important to strive for it.
         
        03-26-2010, 05:49 PM
      #14
    Trained
    Loosie: If you haven't read Monty Roberts book I suggest you do so. What you described in your first post could be an excerpt from it. You shouldn't judge a mans techniques or philosophies with what you see inexpert people doing on youtube.

    Also it would take 5 strong men working in shifts several hours to run a horse so long that it was exhausted and HAD to submit. There is a reason that predators only take the slow and the weak and it's not charity. Rather the horse sees you as the lead mare or just realizes that you are not going to eat it the same thing is accomplished.
         
        03-26-2010, 08:38 PM
      #15
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
    Loosie: If you haven't read Monty Roberts book I suggest you do so. What you described in your first post could be an excerpt from it. You shouldn't judge a mans techniques or philosophies with what you see inexpert people doing on youtube.
    Please don't assume the above, without at least asking me. Altho I don't remember him discussing the similarities of predatory behaviour & join up, or anything of the sort, I have read MR's first book, and a lot of other stuff from him BTW. It was actually reading about him in his own words that caused me to think twice about how much his popularity was actually warranted. I have also seen him personally do his 'Join Up', not just other people, 'inexperts' & otherwise.

    As I also tried to emphasise, I'm not against round penning fully by any means, but it depends on how it's done & why, & **generally** I find MR's approach & reasons not the best option, for the reasons I described. I also explained that in some situations I actually do use that style of game tho.

    Quote:
    Also it would take 5 strong men working in shifts several hours to run a horse so long that it was exhausted and HAD to submit.
    I think you underestimate the effects of such techniques. Depends on the situation, etc, but again, that also depends how it's done too I reckon. And we're not talking putting the human to physical work to achieve anything here either. They do very little, standing in the middle of a circle, with the horse doing all the running.

    But the point was, discussing predator's techniques & the *similarities*, not saying that round penning was exactly the *same*. It's the attitude of the whole game, not just the end product. I don't think it's productive to scare a horse or generally put it in a confrontational, no hope situation in the name of training, period. Altho I've seen techniques that use physical exhaustion(& they DON'T necessarily take strong men or shifts or many hrs BTW), I know that as a rule that's not part of the process. Altho in most cases I don't think it's the aim, it seems mental & emotional 'exhustion' - ie 'shutting down' is frequently part of 'round penning' tho.

    Quote:
    Rather the horse sees you as the lead mare or just realizes that you are not going to eat it the same thing is accomplished.
    I think the assumption that 'Join Up' causes the horse to 'respect' you as the 'lead mare' & 'bond' with you is a faulty assumption. I think this exercise is handy in some situations & can indeed *be part of* helping the horse gain trust in your games - ie realise you're not going to eat it. *If* you already have begun building solid foundations, I believe these sort of games can also help reinforce the horse's attitude towards you. As others have pointed out tho, it's far from a magic bullet and is but one small 'tool' that may be appropriate to pull out of the box in some situations.

    I wonder, what is it that you think it accomplishes?

    For that matter, I've asked many people over the years & never got much of anything back, but I'll ask again.... what else does MR do, besides join up?

    ...Besides make carpet armour for gate shy racehorses & keep 'untrainable' 'vicious' horses in a maze of pens, remove their teeth & control them with cattle prods?? - I'm sorry to be so cynical, but those were a couple of the things in his book that influenced my attitude about the man.
         
        03-26-2010, 09:09 PM
      #16
    Pro
    Weanling
    Thanks everyone who answered so far.

    Loosie - great 1st post!
         
        03-26-2010, 09:37 PM
      #17
    Super Moderator
    I use this technique on all first meetings with a new trainee. It is simply how I choose to introduce myself to the training relationship. Does it "work"? Who cares. We get a good chance to measure each other's hardheadedness. Mine is, usually the harder of the two and the horse needs to see (and accept) that right away. We will be great partners if that is understood.
         
        03-26-2010, 09:57 PM
      #18
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
    Also it would take 5 strong men working in shifts several hours to run a horse so long that it was exhausted and HAD to submit. .
    Give me 10 or 15 minutes in a small retangular pen and I will have a horse so exhausted that he is covered in sweat and submits. I fence them hard and fast . The stopping, spinning and sprinting to the next corner wears them down in minutes.
    4 people working a 200 by 200 pen or arena can also quickly wear a horse down. Each takes a quarter of the area and when the horse enters this quarter he is hustled quickly out of that area. Even a well conditioned arab will submit before long.

    I don't know what area is required for 5 strong men??
         
        03-26-2010, 10:59 PM
      #19
    Trained
    Loosie- I didn't aim to offend you I think we agree more than disagree. I don't use Join-up on every horse but if I have one that is really fearful or terribly disrespectful then I use the round pen. On a horse that is afraid it gives them a way to move away from me but it keeps them close enough that I can engage them. On a horse that is disrespectful I can establish that I can make him move his feet any time I want and control the direction and the speed. If I have a horse that doesn't want to move out I can push them to move without having to worry about anything inhibiting thier forward movement. As long as the horse is changing direction and speeds and not just running around mindlessly because the "trainer" has been watching too much RFD-TV or reading too much Horse Forum.
         
        03-26-2010, 11:14 PM
      #20
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RiosDad    

    I don't know what area is required for 5 strong men??
    I was exagerating when I said 5 strong men but even though a horse gives in and is sweaty and breathing hard it doesn't mean that the horse is exhausted and not able to resist any longer. I would think that a horse might decide that things aren't as bad he once thought and decide that they might look at things a little more and see how scary these guys realy are.
         

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