Apparently we've forgotten everything - Page 2
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Horse Training

Apparently we've forgotten everything

This is a discussion on Apparently we've forgotten everything within the Horse Training forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Horse plants wont go forward forum
  • Powered by vBulletin basic training

Like Tree6Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    04-08-2012, 09:09 PM
  #11
Weanling
I have a different mind about drafts, having two Percherons, they can back and there is nothing wrong with teaching them too, nor do they have issues or troubles because they are drafts. We work with ours every day, pick up hooves, stand politely, walk at our shoulder, give to pressure, etc. I have gotten my fair share of compliments at shows while in a line up during a halter class, while everyone else's draft was acting the fool, Smoke would drop her head, stand near me and square up, if she set a foot wrong all I have to do is touch her with two fingers and tell her "back". It is patience, calmness, and persistence.

When we first got Trixie, she had issues with lifting her back hooves, she is lazy. She can if she wishes to and when our farrier is here doing either mare, they are expected to keep their hooves up till he lets them down, and yes, when he shoes their front then trims the back, it can take over an hour. She had an abscess in the hind hoof one time that needed tending and packing, I had asked her 3 times to lift and hold the hoof up, I know it was tender but after the 3rd time of slamming it down but adding a kick I handed my husband a crop and told him, she does it again, slap her hard and make it count. Once was all it took, she got the message loud and clear along with a growl.
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    04-09-2012, 02:00 AM
  #12
Trained
Wow! Thanks for all the responses! Haven't been home all day, so this is my first chance to respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
Do you have a rope halter? If so, does he drop his head and give when you put gentle pressure on the noseband? I taught my horses (draft crosses, but I imagine less "bullish" ones than your guy) to at first drop their noses to soft pressure and then to back up. Which also sets them up for reinbacking from a soft feel. Once they back from pressure on the noseband, which is a good way to start as it's more sensitive than you prodding their chest, I add other "back" commands that I might use, such as a wiggly lead rope, me poking their chest, or ideally, me stepping into their space with a certain amount of energy and saying "back."

Another method that feels a bit rough but if that's what you need, it might work, is to stand back from the horse and snap the rope, kind of like Linda Parelli was doing in that awful video that was posted here a while ago. Except you don't have a metal clip to hit the horse in the face and as soon as he takes a step back, stop and tell him he's a good boy. Rinse, repeat, 'till he's backing off you gently bobbing the rope, rather than snapping it.
We had a rope halter, but it's too small for him now (through the nose). He listened okay with the rope halter, so I'm hopefully going to either get a custom made one (if I can find someone around me who does them) or figure out how to make my own.

The snapping method is similar to what my friend that I used to work with called shanking. He ignores it when I try to shank him (it's just a quick snap down on the lead rope to put pressure on the noseband).

As far as getting him soft...my old gelding was soft when he'd back up for me. Aires is definitely the nose in the air, stiff body belligerent teenager when I ask him to back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargosgirl    
I missed the last paragraph of your post, this thread has gotten to be mostly about backing some how.

Yes, I love your ideas about setting up obstacles for him to deal with when you are lounging. When lounging it is really easy for a horse to just zoom around in circles without really thinking, putting things in their way makes them take more time, use their brains, and think about what they are doing with those feet. For building respect I also like setting up trail courses and taking my horse through them in hand, so my horse learns to really listen to my ground cues in a variety of different tasks.
The trail course is nothing for Aires. The very first time I led him around (the day I signed the papers on him), I took him in the arena and wove the poles, walked around the barrels and even went over the bridge. He will walk onto the bridge, stop on the bridge and stand, stop halfway on or halfway off the bridge, cross the bridge width-wise, and stop on the bridge halfway width-wise (so either his front feet or back feet are on it, while the other set is off).

Quote:
Originally Posted by csimkunas6    
But anyways, its like a complete turn around since we have started to do that. I also just watched a Clinton Anderson episode the other day, where this woman's mare kicked out at them all the time when picking the back feet. Every time that the horse would kick out at him, he would make the horse move. Seemed to make sense, and the horse figured out that it was more worth giving in and letting him pick her feet than it was to run around.
Unfortunately, Aires won't even let me THINK about touching his feet if he isn't tied and unless he's not tied, I can't react fast enough to make him move his feet when he is bad about kicking. One thing I have noticed, though, is that it is really only his left rear that he is bad about (and has always been bad about). I mentioned it to the trainer and she thinks there might be something wrong with one of his other hooves/legs and it hurts him to put pressure on whichever foot it is when I ask him to lift his left rear. So, she wants me to check his right front for heat or a pulse to see if that could be the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreySorrel    
I have a different mind about drafts, having two Percherons, they can back and there is nothing wrong with teaching them too, nor do they have issues or troubles because they are drafts. We work with ours every day, pick up hooves, stand politely, walk at our shoulder, give to pressure, etc. I have gotten my fair share of compliments at shows while in a line up during a halter class, while everyone else's draft was acting the fool, Smoke would drop her head, stand near me and square up, if she set a foot wrong all I have to do is touch her with two fingers and tell her "back". It is patience, calmness, and persistence.

When we first got Trixie, she had issues with lifting her back hooves, she is lazy. She can if she wishes to and when our farrier is here doing either mare, they are expected to keep their hooves up till he lets them down, and yes, when he shoes their front then trims the back, it can take over an hour. She had an abscess in the hind hoof one time that needed tending and packing, I had asked her 3 times to lift and hold the hoof up, I know it was tender but after the 3rd time of slamming it down but adding a kick I handed my husband a crop and told him, she does it again, slap her hard and make it count. Once was all it took, she got the message loud and clear along with a growl.
I have the same attitude you do toward drafts, GreySorrel. That's why I said that he doesn't get any more excuses. I expect him to be able to do everything (on the ground) that a light riding horse can do.

I think when I work with his feet, I'm going to keep the crop around my wrist. That way, if he tries to kick, he'll get a whallop from that instead of my hand and it'll get the point across faster.

Thanks for all the suggestions and encouragement, everybody! We're going back to basic training tomorrow! I'll keep everyone updated on how we do.
     
    04-09-2012, 03:28 AM
  #13
Trained
I try to remember a training whip when training on the ground, or a crop, whichever is appropriate for a particular session. If he is being that bratty, I wouldn't forget!
My mare kicks at farriers when it comes to her hinds and in general is poopy to a farrier, but not with me. So, I have to trim her myself and am currently getting her use to the hoofjack in hopes that a farrier can someday "take back" that job. However, IF she kicked at ME, now that is a different story. I would break down and use a belly band. I consider it to a very harsh approach, which is why I haven't used it on her and am exhuasting all other alternatives to try to get her to behave for a farrier in the future. But if she kicked at ME?? No go. A belly band has to be done in deep sand footing and done by an "expert"....but I have never seen it fail to make them act nicely, thereafter.
My mare will back up in hand by voice command or other cue, and keep backing, as long as I am asking - but she will do exactly as Aires does - take a few steps back then plant her feet IF one applies continuose pressure on the lead. I have to always show someone how to back her - b/c she will only do it, and do it extremely well, if asked "nicely".
     
    04-09-2012, 06:07 AM
  #14
Yearling
Shanking, yeah, that's what it's called. I knew there was a word for it. Have you only tried one or two snaps, or have you stubbornly done it over and over again until you get some sort of response? Like with any of these things, any response will do at first. If he takes one step back, reward.

The two draft crosses (though I don't think breed really matters; my mare has all the sensitivity from her TB side anyway) I trained went through a surly teenager phase with their backing, head up, ears back, body stiff. I'd make them back up until I got a change. If it took them 50 yards to put their ears forward, so be it. You have to be completely tuned into your horse's body language for this to work. Any indication, even the smallest one, that he might even be thinking about softening needs to be rewarded; ears flicking forward, a softening of the eye or mouth, head lowering, licking and chewing, anything like that.

The beauty of it was that once I got those horses soft when they went backwards, everything else opened up and softened up. I think the "back" is one of the most challenging bits of groundwork to get right, and the one where any resistance your horse has towards you is likely to show up.
Back2Horseback likes this.
     
    04-09-2012, 08:38 AM
  #15
Foal
I just got the April issue of Horse magazine (a british magazine that my local Barnes & Noble carries) and they had an interesting article with exercises you can do on the ground with your horse. That might give you some ideas, if your local bookstore carries it.

Adrianne
     
    04-09-2012, 01:55 PM
  #16
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
Shanking, yeah, that's what it's called. I knew there was a word for it. Have you only tried one or two snaps, or have you stubbornly done it over and over again until you get some sort of response? Like with any of these things, any response will do at first. If he takes one step back, reward.

The two draft crosses (though I don't think breed really matters; my mare has all the sensitivity from her TB side anyway) I trained went through a surly teenager phase with their backing, head up, ears back, body stiff. I'd make them back up until I got a change. If it took them 50 yards to put their ears forward, so be it. You have to be completely tuned into your horse's body language for this to work. Any indication, even the smallest one, that he might even be thinking about softening needs to be rewarded; ears flicking forward, a softening of the eye or mouth, head lowering, licking and chewing, anything like that.

The beauty of it was that once I got those horses soft when they went backwards, everything else opened up and softened up. I think the "back" is one of the most challenging bits of groundwork to get right, and the one where any resistance your horse has towards you is likely to show up.
Generally speaking, he gets shanked until stops moving backward and stands politely. That's the way my friend taught me to do it (not saying that's the right way, just the way I was taught). When he backs when I'm shanking him, he'll be head up and stiff, but once he gives in, his head comes down from its giraffe pose (not far, but enough) and his eye softens.

Really, the only time I resort to shanking is if he absolutely refuses to move forward (usually when we're going to the round pen) and won't back up nicely when asked. I was taught (also by my friend, so it could be wrong) that if they don't want to go forward, you make them go backward until they want to go forward. You ask for the "back" politely the first time, then if you don't get the response you are looking for, you raise the ante, so to speak.

I think we're going to work almost exclusively on backing for a while. You're right, silverspear...from what I've seen, horses that are responsive to backing on the ground are more responsive pretty much everywhere (my old gelding, once I got him to soften in the back and respond to just my hand on his chest and the word "back", was a completely different horse everywhere else).
Back2Horseback likes this.
     
    04-09-2012, 03:02 PM
  #17
Yearling
If I'm shanking a horse, it's because I had asked it to back with a soft up and down wiggle of the rope or by stepping into its space nd it didn't respond. I always ask nicely first, giving the horse the opportunity to respond to a light aid. I shank them until I get a back, any back, and then get them backing off the wiggley rope. THEN I start backing until I get a measure of softness. If you're shanking a horse, any horse, his head is going to up and he's not going to look happy. So before you can expect him to be soft, you have to be soft. Hence shanking is used for the initial correction but then I want him backing off a lighter aid (doesn't have to be a wiggley rope; whatever cue you want), at which point I can start asking him to be soft. I don't want to be shanking, or using any other harsher correction, over and over again. If I am, it means I'm not making the behaviour I DO want obvious to the horse.

With a balker, I'll move its feet any direction of my choosing. If it won't go forward, it can go sideways, backwards, whatever. I've also found that if my horses and I agree that I have control of their feet, they don't balk (the time my horse smelled or sensed a mountain lion and refused, quite sensibly, to up a trail notwithstanding).
Back2Horseback likes this.
     
    04-09-2012, 03:07 PM
  #18
Trained
Your way makes more sense. Lol

As for moving his feet in any direction...generally once backing ceases to work, I make him yield his hindquarters. Once he starts licking, I stop making him yield and ask him to go forward again. We will get about five or ten steps in the direction I want to go, and then he balks again. Generally, I'll spend a good five minutes making him back and yield and not get anywhere. So then, I'll have my friend (or someone else who is willing) come up behind him with the lunge whip or a carrot stick and put pressure on him from behind...and all of a sudden he's Mr Cooperative.
     
    04-09-2012, 03:15 PM
  #19
Yearling
Try spotting the balk before he balks. Just as he's thinking of doing it, make him go around you in a circle at the trot, driving him forward with a whip or the end of the lead line. Following you quietly will seem like a far better deal. I probably wouldn't use the back as a correction for this until I had a responsive, soft back sorted out, since if you get the surly teenager back and then he refuses, he's still in a resisting frame of mind. So you've not solve your problem. Driving the horse forward is much easier and thus facilitates him shifting his brain from a backwards mentality to a forwards one.
     
    04-09-2012, 03:22 PM
  #20
Trained
We've got to work on him moving around me in a circle at all. If I try to drive him forward, as you suggested, he just ends up yielding his hindquarters. The trainer once worked on him for FIFTEEN MINUTES trying to get him to basically lunge in a circle on the lead and got maybe one circle out of him. She was getting sooooo frustrated. All he would do is yield his hindquarters. That's part of the reason I definitely want to work on lunging on a line as part of our re-education. He has this mentality that if he is on a lead that a person is holding, he HAS to remain at their shoulder at all costs.
     

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Forgotten Drafts FutureVetGirl Draft Horses 49 12-02-2011 02:22 PM
Gone but not forgotten buddy09 Horse Memorials 11 12-06-2009 09:40 AM
forgotten melodies farmpony84 Movies, Music, and TV 10 08-26-2009 09:01 PM
Ive forgotten how to jump =[ charliBum Jumping 8 08-09-2009 04:54 PM
Where can you buy the forgotten toys? EnglishriderClaire Movies, Music, and TV 0 07-29-2009 05:48 AM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0